Archery - updated mechanics

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Hazelnut
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Re: Archery - updated mechanics

Post by Hazelnut »

Okay, I've been working on foundations for this. (yes, it caught my interest..)

I've added a new 2 stage process for shooting arrows with a bow. Hold down right mouse to draw and then release to fire. Uses 3 frames of animation which were previously unused due to single stage attack animation process written for melee weapons. There's a new setting BowDrawback to enable this.

I had intended the whole thing to be in a mod, but after looking at the weapon handling and animation code it feels like this part needs into the core DFU codebase, as an option of course.

I hope to add mod hooks for this 2 stage process so it can be integrated with damage and hold limits in a mod. This may prove impossible but I will give it go. Even if this doesn't work I think the draw and fire 2 stage interaction is valuable enough to add on it's own.

Personal herohood here I come! lol 8-)
See my mod code for examples of how to change various aspects of DFU: https://github.com/ajrb/dfunity-mods

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King of Worms
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Re: Archery - updated mechanics

Post by King of Worms »

Beautiful progress!

The previously unused frames are really good to be re-implemented back, great job.

Only thing Im not really sure of is, that now we will shoot with right mouse button?
Why is it so? Usually shooting is done by the LMB in games.

But maybe it feels ok when you are actually playing the game, not sure.

Very close to the beatification and canonization :lol:

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Hazelnut
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Re: Archery - updated mechanics

Post by Hazelnut »

RH mouse button is the attack button in Daggerfall both classic and DFU. It feels very natural to me, but then I use the old hold RH button to attack controls, none of this casual noob click to attack rubbish. (kids, gerroff me lawn!) :lol:

I think left click could maybe allow to undraw the bow without shooting. Or maybe a key would be better for that.
See my mod code for examples of how to change various aspects of DFU: https://github.com/ajrb/dfunity-mods

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King of Worms
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Re: Archery - updated mechanics

Post by King of Worms »

Oh true, Ive forgot about that!
And yes, right click for melee attacks all the way :twisted:
LMB to cancel might be good idea.

This will be great, thank you!

Oh, almost forgot, you are now
Spoiler!
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Hazelnut
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Re: Archery - updated mechanics

Post by Hazelnut »

LMB cancels now. :)
See my mod code for examples of how to change various aspects of DFU: https://github.com/ajrb/dfunity-mods

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King of Worms
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Re: Archery - updated mechanics

Post by King of Worms »

Perfect! Ive updated a opening post slightly to reflect the progress
Plus Ive copy pasted the Gads suggestion about the advanced charging mechanics to the OP as well
Thank you ;)

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Hazelnut
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Re: Archery - updated mechanics

Post by Hazelnut »

Working on making the draw and hold time availiable to the damage calc formula so I can override it in the realism mod.

I noticed that bows are having the +4 dmg and -10 to hit modifiers of down strikes for hits. I'm assuming this is a mistake, but please if anyone thinks this is correct or intentional. It may simply be exactly how classic works and was faithfully reverse engineered by Allofich.
See my mod code for examples of how to change various aspects of DFU: https://github.com/ajrb/dfunity-mods

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jayhova
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Re: Archery - updated mechanics

Post by jayhova »

As to the mechanics of how the bow should work, I totally agree that hit % and damage should quickly ramp up. However, only hit % should go down. Once the bow is at full pull, damage should stay the same. The mechanics of archery are such that the shooter is locked in position and tension on the string does not change.

There should be a short but significant amount of time before it becomes difficult to aim. In fact in competition archery the shot is not made until the bow is drawn, the shooter has relaxed, the target is sighted. This means that accuracy will increase after the bow is fully draw, up to say a second and a half. So a draw/loose would be more of a snapshot (good for close in targets), while draw/aim/loose would be more effective for precise shots. Additional strength would not help since a drawn bow, made for the average user, has the same penetration no matter what your strength.

I was thinking that after 10 seconds the arrow should returned to ready/nocked position rather than simply shot willy nilly. No one would do this and it's easy to just relax and return to ready position without loosing the arrow.
Remember always 'What would Julian Do?'.
Windows 10 Pro 64 bit. DFU Ver. Alpha 0.10.7

Gadel
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Re: Archery - updated mechanics

Post by Gadel »

jayhova wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 9:53 pm As to the mechanics of how the bow should work, I totally agree that hit % and damage should quickly ramp up. However, only hit % should go down. Once the bow is at full pull, damage should stay the same. The mechanics of archery are such that the shooter is locked in position and tension on the string does not change.
the tension doesn't change but the string realease may shake... wich slow the arrow so you lose some efficiency on power.
Locked position... not at all... the longer u take the "pose" to fire... the most probably u'll have a wrong aim. Just like a firearm (mosly like a simple gun).
See -> aim while u band the bow -> finish aim once the bow is fully banded and realease the arrow.
That's how it works.
still ur point is totally valuable about the tension.

a little video about archery basics :p
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahLNCzV56yk[/youtube]
jayhova wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 9:53 pm Additional strength would not help since a drawn bow, made for the average user, has the same penetration no matter what your strength.
Strenght doesnt come in play for damage. Only on banding the bow. the more strenght u have the faster and easier u can band a bow. that's all. In real medieval archery some bow are nearly impossible to band if u are weak physically.
In modern archery bow are easy to band. But a compound bow with pulleys helps to have higher tension with less physical effort.
jayhova wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 9:53 pm I was thinking that after 10 seconds the arrow should returned to ready/nocked position rather than simply shot willy nilly. No one would do this and it's easy to just relax and return to ready position without loosing the arrow.
U made a point... If my arm start to tremble cause exhausted i wouldn't wait my hand to realease unvolontarily the arrow.

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jayhova
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Re: Archery - updated mechanics

Post by jayhova »

Gadel wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:48 pm
jayhova wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 9:53 pm As to the mechanics of how the bow should work, I totally agree that hit % and damage should quickly ramp up. However, only hit % should go down. Once the bow is at full pull, damage should stay the same. The mechanics of archery are such that the shooter is locked in position and tension on the string does not change.
the tension doesn't change but the string realease may shake... wich slow the arrow so you lose some efficiency on power.
Locked position... not at all... the longer u take the "pose" to fire... the most probably u'll have a wrong aim. Just like a firearm (mosly like a simple gun).
See -> aim while u band the bow -> finish aim once the bow is fully banded and realease the arrow.
That's how it works.
still ur point is totally valuable about the tension.

a little video about archery basics :p
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahLNCzV56yk[/youtube]
I have to disagree with you. The draw is not affected by muscle fatigue. You are holding your left arm straight out and aiming with that arm. The string on the other hand (small pun intended) is not moving at all and is locked into position at the corner of your mouth. What the above video points out is that there is no added benefit to continue to aim at the target. This is of course correct. This of course assumes the target is not moving or behind something etc. If you are waiting for the target to stop or step out there is a reason the continue to aim. The time he gives before there is any problem is 3-5 seconds. This is 3-5 seconds after the bow is drawn. That's an eternity.
Gadel wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:48 pm
jayhova wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 9:53 pm Additional strength would not help since a drawn bow, made for the average user, has the same penetration no matter what your strength.
Strenght doesnt come in play for damage. Only on banding the bow. the more strenght u have the faster and easier u can band a bow. that's all. In real medieval archery some bow are nearly impossible to band if u are weak physically.
In modern archery bow are easy to band. But a compound bow with pulleys helps to have higher tension with less physical effort.
jayhova wrote: Fri May 31, 2019 9:53 pm I was thinking that after 10 seconds the arrow should returned to ready/nocked position rather than simply shot willy nilly. No one would do this and it's easy to just relax and return to ready position without loosing the arrow.
U made a point... If my arm start to tremble cause exhausted i wouldn't wait my hand to realease unvolontarily the arrow.
The English longbow is quite difficult to draw. Boys stating at the age of seven were required to practice 2 hours a day. This adapted them to the particular muscles necessary to fire quickly and accurately. However, the strength to bend the bow is less than the strength to hold the bow in the drawn position. Again, the release is simply a matter of relaxing the hand holding the string. The string is not moving and the arm holding it is not struggling to position it. I didn't say that there should not be a penalty for aiming for a long time. What i said is that there should be a short but significant time before that starts to happen somewhere between 3-5 seconds, perhaps depending on your strength, seems about right. The accuracy penalty should not be as bad as when you are still struggling to draw the bow back.
Remember always 'What would Julian Do?'.
Windows 10 Pro 64 bit. DFU Ver. Alpha 0.10.7

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