Archery - updated mechanics

Talk about the mods or features you'd like to see in Daggerfall Unity. Give mod creators some ideas!
Gadel
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Re: Archery - updated mechanics

Post by Gadel »

jayhova wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:06 am . The time he gives before there is any problem is 3-5 seconds. This is 3-5 seconds after the bow is drawn. That's an eternity.
Well true. 3-5 second is an eternity in archery. Still in most of modern video game u saw some guy walking with a bow banded for 30 to 40 second. wich is almost impossible irl.
The fact here is mostly gameplay vs realism.
For example u cant "bend" the arrow while she flies... witch happen irl. u wont do it in game cause it has no use.
jayhova wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:06 am The English longbow is quite difficult to draw. Boys stating at the age of seven were required to practice 2 hours a day. This adapted them to the particular muscles necessary to fire quickly and accurately. However, the strength to bend the bow is less than the strength to hold the bow in the drawn position. Again, the release is simply a matter of relaxing the hand holding the string. The string is not moving and the arm holding it is not struggling to position it. I didn't say that there should not be a penalty for aiming for a long time. What i said is that there should be a short but significant time before that starts to happen somewhere between 3-5 seconds, perhaps depending on your strength, seems about right. The accuracy penalty should not be as bad as when you are still struggling to draw the bow back.
for In Game in daggerfall. Endurance would be better for the "holding" pose time. Since it relies to stamina. Strenght to reduce the time to band the bow. (that's what i pointed earlier)

as an example in my initial post with 100 attribute in END STR and AGI (the example is for auto realease but i get that's nonsense actually since u wouldnt realease after holding that much)

u have at maximum holding a 6 second (based on str + end)
And a damage variation of : + 160 % and 25% less chance to hit . (based on agility)

the perfect shoot is between 1.4 second and 5.6 second (based on STR and END)
The damage reach a maximum amount of 200% + added some chance to crit.



The same maximum holding calc with a 0 attribute in END STRENGH AND AGI gives this result.
With 0 attribute... witch almost mean u are totally impotent.

2.2 second maximum holding.
damage 60% and 50% less chance to aim.

And the perfect shoot is between
1.6 and 1.8 second
and 100% damage + some added chance to crit.


Doesnt seems so unacurate even with ur considerations. Agility stay the main charcteristic in damage terms. And str is only a "fast" shooting helper. still Endurance is the aim time helper.

edit : note the damage also reflect the good aim (if u hit some1 in head or heart...will surely do more damage than in the arm)

edit 2 : just figured that my initial post should consider a 0.002 str not 0.02
Last edited by Gadel on Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ifkopifko
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Re: Archery - updated mechanics

Post by ifkopifko »

Hi there. Firstly, I confess I did not read everything very carefully because I'm under the impression you got carried away a bit. (No offense meant.) Secondly, I highly approve of modifying the bow shooting system to something more immersive. :-)

I think that when you want to mess with "chance to hit", you should do it like in first-person-shooters - give the projectile some random spread from the intended aim. That way, due to inaccuracy you might actually hit another nearby target. I will try to explain why I think this makes sense...

I am not quite sure how the mechanics work in vanilla DF or in DFU with regard to "chance to hit". But I take it, that since with a melee weapon you are able to hit more than one enemy with a single swing, it might be something along the line: a weapon with certain parameters (depending on the weapon itself, the character - skills and attributes, the attack type) intersects the hitbox of an enemy. Afterwards, hit/miss is calculated based on some random rolls and the defender's attributes.

Something similar should also be applied to ranged weapons. From your talk I understood that you intend to process hit/miss like in tabletop RPGs and the like (importance on who the target is exactly, not an the projectile direction, if you get what I mean). That's not well suited for a first person game I think.

As far as damage goes, I would not complicate it too much with decreases, increases, bonuses and what-not. The graphics of this game is pretty simple, there is no point in trying to land headshots etc. Just my opinion of course.


You know, I enjoyed the bow shooting system in Thief the Dark Project. Then again, I do not believe it would be a good idea to implement it exactly that way into DFU. It is slow paced and therefore useful only in limited set of situations.
If someone is willing to create a mod, which transforms DFU into a bow shooting range simulator, go for it. But I am afraid that without changing some basic parameters of the game (hitboxes, balance enemies in general, etc.) I do not think it's going to be very ... rewarding. Also, if you strive for realism... when using a bow, there are various styles how to use it (speed vs damage vs accuracy comes to mind), might be difficult to put that into the game controls-wise.

Thanks for reading. :)

Gadel
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Joined: Fri May 17, 2019 12:44 pm

Re: Archery - updated mechanics

Post by Gadel »

@ ifkopifko
as u are a bit lazy ;p
short answer :
1. optional mod
2. daggerfall is mostly based on tabletop rpg charts so i think the same way.
3. the fps "area" is a great idea on miss still... not sure it's possible to do this here.
4. Gameplay fun vs reality yup hard to find the good balance.

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jayhova
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Re: Archery - updated mechanics

Post by jayhova »

I didn't suggest that bows be allowed to be drawn for 30 seconds. 10-15 seconds seems reasonable. I do suggest that accuracy should not drop immediately after the bow is fully drawn. In fact the bow is most accurate shortly after the bow is drawn when the muscles are no longer straining to draw the bow. To demonstrate my point I am including Olympic archery. You can clearly see the contestants hold the bow drawn for up to 5 seconds, relaxing and settling on the target.

Last edited by jayhova on Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
Remember always 'What would Julian Do?'.
Windows 10 Pro 64 bit. DFU Ver. Alpha 0.10.7

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Hazelnut
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Re: Archery - updated mechanics

Post by Hazelnut »

FYI, I finally spent some time getting mod settings working and have now released a mod with the to hit and damage adjustments based on draw time. It's pretty simple, as I think doing much more is not going to be noticable. I tried to take all I read on this thread and settle on a compromise that seemed sensible.
See my mod code for examples of how to change various aspects of DFU: https://github.com/ajrb/dfunity-mods

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King of Worms
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Re: Archery - updated mechanics

Post by King of Worms »

Awesome, Im very glad this mod idea is being realized fully :) great job!

Regnier
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Re: Archery - updated mechanics

Post by Regnier »

Hey im not sure if this is a bug or not but im having some issues with archery.

I cant hit a damn thing.

My agility is at 69 and my archery is about 48, with those numbers i should be able to hit a caged bear at least once in 130+ shots. (also happens in wilderness/dungeons)

The range is 2-5 seconds for a good shot, correct?

Please help lol

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MasonFace
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Re: Archery - updated mechanics

Post by MasonFace »

What version of DFU are you using? A similar bug has been resolved. That is, it might not be this MOD that's causing the issue.

Do you have a hard time hitting enemies that aren't in a cage?

Regnier
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Re: Archery - updated mechanics

Post by Regnier »

MasonFace wrote: Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:09 pm What version of DFU are you using? A similar bug has been resolved. That is, it might not be this MOD that's causing the issue.

Do you have a hard time hitting enemies that aren't in a cage?
Yes i just saw that thread so i edited my post. It happens no matter what and im using the latest version

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pango
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Re: Archery - updated mechanics

Post by pango »

MasonFace wrote: Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:09 pm A similar bug has been resolved. That is, it might not be this MOD that's causing the issue.
That was an issue with melee weapons only; Arrow use a SphereCast and worked already (as long as you aim between the bars).
But maybe some cages have bars so close to one another that it's an issue for arrows too?
When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.
-- Charles Goodhart

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