[Think Tank] What Sorts Of Things Can Help Keep Gold Valuable Throughout The Game?
- Magicono43
- Posts: 1141
- Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:06 am
[Think Tank] What Sorts Of Things Can Help Keep Gold Valuable Throughout The Game?
So now that I am nearly finished with my "economy" related mod, that being giving shops a limited gold supply. I have been thinking of things that I notice many RPG games, and just games in general have a problem doing right, that thing being keeping the currency of the game-world valuable and worth having throughout the entirety of the game/play-through.
There are many examples of this problem, as well as good examples of games that solve this problem somewhat. Just to give those reading an idea of what i'm talking about, and will hopefully make this problem more clear, here are a few examples of games that have done this well, and other that have done this poorly.
Good:
-Faster Than Light (FTL): I think almost any rogue-like game could be put into this category as well. The reason being that in these games you are expected to be doing multiple play-throughs of the game, and in those individual play-throughs, you are generally given the challenge of surviving as long as possible and having to carefully manage your resources to get as far as possible. This necessity of survival basically gives the in-game currency a permanent value through all play-throughs of the game.
-RTS and Strategy Games: The logic here being that in competitive games such as Starcraft, Warcraft, Age of Empires, etc. where the objective is to destroy the enemy and not be destroyed yourself, you will accomplish this by any means, and the only way to destroy your enemy is to build an army. This army requires resources from a finite amount on each map to be created, while your enemy will do the same and cause a strain of resources on each side. This struggle at the end of the day will be determined by who used their resources the most effectively throughout the game, making the in-game currency constantly valuable.
-Certain RPGs: Not every RPG game does this system poorly, but most of them do from my experience. A few examples that do an "ok" job are ones that all some sort of customization, progression, base-building baked into the game. I recall Pillars of Eternity seeming to have a base system that would in theory give currency value if it allowed lots of additions and upgrades. Some of the newer Bethesda titles where you can buy and furnish houses and such with usually fairly high gold costs attached. While these sorts of gold sinks are not the "best" examples, at least it gives some value to the currency. I'll also throw in games that require some currency to be used to upgrade or level a character in some way, once again, not a great example, but at least it's there.
Alright, not the best written examples there, but hopefully that's coherent enough to be understood. Now i'll list a few BAD examples of this system failing from my experience.
Bad:
-Most Zelda Titles: Except for a few more modern examples like Twilight Princess and BOTW (don't know, have not played it). Basically every Zelda game I have played has had an awful value consistency for their in-game currencies, which are primarily rubies. If you get to the point where your wallet capacity is maxed out most of the time, but you could not give a damn because there is nothing to spend those rubies on anyway besides some consumables that can be found in the world anyway, to me, that's a broken game economy.
-Most JRPGs: The reason for this one being that in many cases the best items in the game are found from secrets, bosses, dungeon chests, etc. Shops are usually going to stop being used after a point, besides for maybe stocking up on some consumables, maybe. Unless arbitrary "gates" are made that halt progression without massive sums of currency, the currencies of these games seems to lose value very quickly, an example I can think of right now is Earthbound. After a point the money stops having any value besides a few massively expensive items, but outside of the start of the game, money stops having a purpose.
There are many more examples, but i'm pulling a blank at the moment for more really bad examples of broken game economies.
So with examples out of the way, i'll get to the point. I feel that Daggerfall teeters on the edge of being considered a broken game economy by my definition. Now there are examples of things that make the gold have value, things such as the super expensive housing, boats (basically housing), daedra summoning fees, and expensive item enchantment fees.
While there are some good gold sinks in Daggerfall, I don't feel like many of them are really things that feel "fun" as things to go toward and actually making having gold and acquiring it feel like an accomplishment or satisfying reward. There are currently a few mods that help with this issue.
One being the "Air Ships" mod, but that sort of fits in the same with the boats thing, obviously just moving and cooler, lol. The real winner in this case would be "House Furniture" mod, which basically allows the player to customize their owned house similar to how the later Elder Scrolls games allowed the player to do, which is a big thumbs up from me.
With this, I would like to put the question out there for ideas of things that could be added into Daggerfall that would help keep gold an always valuable resource and not something that just starts to pile up and take space in the wagon. Please post your ideas so this could become a place for modders such as myself to consider adding in things that we may have not thought of that could make the game better, as well as make a better and more effective economy for the game-world.
Here are some of my ideas in this case:
-Increasing the cost of services that are already in the game, that would increase the value of gold by virtue of making it more sparse, due to other "essential" things being more expensive and causing more of a strain on the players gold pile. This would be simple things, such as cost to stay at inns, food from inns, item cost in general especially for smaller consumable items like lantern oil and spell maker fees, repair costs, etc.
-Limiting the supply of gold, this I am already doing with my mod I mentioned at the start, basically making it harder and take more effort to obtain gold by virtue of the fact that the player would need to go to multiple shops or wait periods of time in-game to sell to the same shops before their gold stock runs out again.
-Make banks be less broken and make loans harder to abuse, as well as make loan abuse more punishing, the Iron-man mod already did the "more punishing" part.
-The ability to have hirelings and for hire followers that either charge a regular fee, or can be customized in some way similar to how these worked in Skyrim.
-Make the game more difficult, and making survival require more preparation/previsions to do things like travel and dungeon crawl, etc. That way potions/light sources/spells and such would be more necessary to not die during these ventures.
There are more ideas I have for this, but i'd like to see what anyone reading this may have to add to this "think tank" sort of post. Thanks for reading, I hope more can be added onto this.
Edit 1: Interesting suggestions from other posters:
-Pango: The ability to give gold to factions, influencing world balance.
-Ralzar: Being able to buy a plot of land and build on this land various things like a farm, house, entire keep, better housing system pretty much than what currently exists in the game.
-Andromacus & Ralzar: Reducing gold rewards found in dungeon crawling, as to keep gold rewards from quests being worthwhile, instead of taking a back seat to loot from 2-3 enemies.
-Andromacus: Ability to buy more types of property, such as shops that could provide a passive income for owning, as well as other features.
- Ah_Ftagn: Contraband/Illegal Items, that can get you in some hot-water with the local region that whatever items are outlawed in. If caught with such items could lead to fines, jail-time, regional rep. loss, and likely confiscation of said items. Such items could be many things, drugs, soul gems, filled soul gems (possibly to accusations of murder if filled with a human soul), daedric equipment, daedric artifacts, etc.
- Ah_Ftagn & Ralzar: More punishment/balance ideas for banks and especially bank loans. If you default on a loan, potentially have bounty hunters sent after the player at various times to try and collect, or just "punish" them for their dishonest actions, possibly be met just outside a dungeon you went through waiting for you and giving them your plundered loot as payment on the loan, or they can mess you up instead. Another idea on this vein, make letters of credit deposited to banks worth less if you regional reputation is low, since they don't fully trust that your letters are legitimate, or possibly change letters of credit so they are marked with a certain region they were issued from, make them worth less in regions where that region in question is at war or generally disliked, etc.
- BadLuckBurt & Cliffworms: Gambling games in taverns, as well as higher stake gambling as well.
There are many examples of this problem, as well as good examples of games that solve this problem somewhat. Just to give those reading an idea of what i'm talking about, and will hopefully make this problem more clear, here are a few examples of games that have done this well, and other that have done this poorly.
Good:
-Faster Than Light (FTL): I think almost any rogue-like game could be put into this category as well. The reason being that in these games you are expected to be doing multiple play-throughs of the game, and in those individual play-throughs, you are generally given the challenge of surviving as long as possible and having to carefully manage your resources to get as far as possible. This necessity of survival basically gives the in-game currency a permanent value through all play-throughs of the game.
-RTS and Strategy Games: The logic here being that in competitive games such as Starcraft, Warcraft, Age of Empires, etc. where the objective is to destroy the enemy and not be destroyed yourself, you will accomplish this by any means, and the only way to destroy your enemy is to build an army. This army requires resources from a finite amount on each map to be created, while your enemy will do the same and cause a strain of resources on each side. This struggle at the end of the day will be determined by who used their resources the most effectively throughout the game, making the in-game currency constantly valuable.
-Certain RPGs: Not every RPG game does this system poorly, but most of them do from my experience. A few examples that do an "ok" job are ones that all some sort of customization, progression, base-building baked into the game. I recall Pillars of Eternity seeming to have a base system that would in theory give currency value if it allowed lots of additions and upgrades. Some of the newer Bethesda titles where you can buy and furnish houses and such with usually fairly high gold costs attached. While these sorts of gold sinks are not the "best" examples, at least it gives some value to the currency. I'll also throw in games that require some currency to be used to upgrade or level a character in some way, once again, not a great example, but at least it's there.
Alright, not the best written examples there, but hopefully that's coherent enough to be understood. Now i'll list a few BAD examples of this system failing from my experience.
Bad:
-Most Zelda Titles: Except for a few more modern examples like Twilight Princess and BOTW (don't know, have not played it). Basically every Zelda game I have played has had an awful value consistency for their in-game currencies, which are primarily rubies. If you get to the point where your wallet capacity is maxed out most of the time, but you could not give a damn because there is nothing to spend those rubies on anyway besides some consumables that can be found in the world anyway, to me, that's a broken game economy.
-Most JRPGs: The reason for this one being that in many cases the best items in the game are found from secrets, bosses, dungeon chests, etc. Shops are usually going to stop being used after a point, besides for maybe stocking up on some consumables, maybe. Unless arbitrary "gates" are made that halt progression without massive sums of currency, the currencies of these games seems to lose value very quickly, an example I can think of right now is Earthbound. After a point the money stops having any value besides a few massively expensive items, but outside of the start of the game, money stops having a purpose.
There are many more examples, but i'm pulling a blank at the moment for more really bad examples of broken game economies.
So with examples out of the way, i'll get to the point. I feel that Daggerfall teeters on the edge of being considered a broken game economy by my definition. Now there are examples of things that make the gold have value, things such as the super expensive housing, boats (basically housing), daedra summoning fees, and expensive item enchantment fees.
While there are some good gold sinks in Daggerfall, I don't feel like many of them are really things that feel "fun" as things to go toward and actually making having gold and acquiring it feel like an accomplishment or satisfying reward. There are currently a few mods that help with this issue.
One being the "Air Ships" mod, but that sort of fits in the same with the boats thing, obviously just moving and cooler, lol. The real winner in this case would be "House Furniture" mod, which basically allows the player to customize their owned house similar to how the later Elder Scrolls games allowed the player to do, which is a big thumbs up from me.
With this, I would like to put the question out there for ideas of things that could be added into Daggerfall that would help keep gold an always valuable resource and not something that just starts to pile up and take space in the wagon. Please post your ideas so this could become a place for modders such as myself to consider adding in things that we may have not thought of that could make the game better, as well as make a better and more effective economy for the game-world.
Here are some of my ideas in this case:
-Increasing the cost of services that are already in the game, that would increase the value of gold by virtue of making it more sparse, due to other "essential" things being more expensive and causing more of a strain on the players gold pile. This would be simple things, such as cost to stay at inns, food from inns, item cost in general especially for smaller consumable items like lantern oil and spell maker fees, repair costs, etc.
-Limiting the supply of gold, this I am already doing with my mod I mentioned at the start, basically making it harder and take more effort to obtain gold by virtue of the fact that the player would need to go to multiple shops or wait periods of time in-game to sell to the same shops before their gold stock runs out again.
-Make banks be less broken and make loans harder to abuse, as well as make loan abuse more punishing, the Iron-man mod already did the "more punishing" part.
-The ability to have hirelings and for hire followers that either charge a regular fee, or can be customized in some way similar to how these worked in Skyrim.
-Make the game more difficult, and making survival require more preparation/previsions to do things like travel and dungeon crawl, etc. That way potions/light sources/spells and such would be more necessary to not die during these ventures.
There are more ideas I have for this, but i'd like to see what anyone reading this may have to add to this "think tank" sort of post. Thanks for reading, I hope more can be added onto this.
Edit 1: Interesting suggestions from other posters:
-Pango: The ability to give gold to factions, influencing world balance.
-Ralzar: Being able to buy a plot of land and build on this land various things like a farm, house, entire keep, better housing system pretty much than what currently exists in the game.
-Andromacus & Ralzar: Reducing gold rewards found in dungeon crawling, as to keep gold rewards from quests being worthwhile, instead of taking a back seat to loot from 2-3 enemies.
-Andromacus: Ability to buy more types of property, such as shops that could provide a passive income for owning, as well as other features.
- Ah_Ftagn: Contraband/Illegal Items, that can get you in some hot-water with the local region that whatever items are outlawed in. If caught with such items could lead to fines, jail-time, regional rep. loss, and likely confiscation of said items. Such items could be many things, drugs, soul gems, filled soul gems (possibly to accusations of murder if filled with a human soul), daedric equipment, daedric artifacts, etc.
- Ah_Ftagn & Ralzar: More punishment/balance ideas for banks and especially bank loans. If you default on a loan, potentially have bounty hunters sent after the player at various times to try and collect, or just "punish" them for their dishonest actions, possibly be met just outside a dungeon you went through waiting for you and giving them your plundered loot as payment on the loan, or they can mess you up instead. Another idea on this vein, make letters of credit deposited to banks worth less if you regional reputation is low, since they don't fully trust that your letters are legitimate, or possibly change letters of credit so they are marked with a certain region they were issued from, make them worth less in regions where that region in question is at war or generally disliked, etc.
- BadLuckBurt & Cliffworms: Gambling games in taverns, as well as higher stake gambling as well.
Last edited by Magicono43 on Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:05 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: [Think Tank] What Sorts Of Things Can Help Keep Gold Valuable Throughout The Game?
As far as high-cost items go the airships mod certainly help with the large airship costing 4 million gold. A player can definitely expect it to take a while to get that much money.
- pango
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Re: [Think Tank] What Sorts Of Things Can Help Keep Gold Valuable Throughout The Game?
The possibility to give gold to factions, influencing world balance?
I have no idea how deep that can go with existing factions system though, it may have to be extended.
I have no idea how deep that can go with existing factions system though, it may have to be extended.
Mastodon: @pango@fosstodon.org
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When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.
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- Ralzar
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Re: [Think Tank] What Sorts Of Things Can Help Keep Gold Valuable Throughout The Game?
Honestly, my approach, and I still think it's the correct one, is not to introduce more gold sinks, but to reduce the amount of gold possible to earn. I feel the economy works fine for the first levels (unless you try to break it) but then it starts going off the rails quickly once the game starts dropping more high-material loot.
If the high tier armor/weapons were either much rarer, didn't sell for as much or was not possible to sell (your mod might fix this to some degree?) there wouldn't be such an absurd influx of gold. One of the things this then causes, is for quest gold rewards to still be worth a damn. Which is how it should be. When you take a quest, the payment for the job should be the main source of income from the quest, not the junk you hauled back from the dungeon.
I am pretty sure it is possible to limit the material drop in dungeons to some degree through the code Hazelnuts RP&R:Items use, but it will be a bit awkward and will not affect stock in shops, loot piles and maybe not items generated into dead enemies.
If the gold influx is curtailed, you can then even consider adjusting down the price of some of the gold sinks, making the prices less rediculous.
Of course, another part to the broken economy is the banks. If it wasn't so easy to just carry around absurd amounts of gold as credit notes accross borders, you might not have such a big problem with broken economy. But changing that might easily lead to more hassle and annoyance than anything.
One idea we thrown around some time ago: being able to buy a Home. To actually take over a farm, manor, hall etc. Once you're able to that you could look into modding in stuff like farming or house upgrades.
Hm, maybe even not a Home but just a piece of land? And then build your own house (or even keep?) there.
If the high tier armor/weapons were either much rarer, didn't sell for as much or was not possible to sell (your mod might fix this to some degree?) there wouldn't be such an absurd influx of gold. One of the things this then causes, is for quest gold rewards to still be worth a damn. Which is how it should be. When you take a quest, the payment for the job should be the main source of income from the quest, not the junk you hauled back from the dungeon.
I am pretty sure it is possible to limit the material drop in dungeons to some degree through the code Hazelnuts RP&R:Items use, but it will be a bit awkward and will not affect stock in shops, loot piles and maybe not items generated into dead enemies.
If the gold influx is curtailed, you can then even consider adjusting down the price of some of the gold sinks, making the prices less rediculous.
Of course, another part to the broken economy is the banks. If it wasn't so easy to just carry around absurd amounts of gold as credit notes accross borders, you might not have such a big problem with broken economy. But changing that might easily lead to more hassle and annoyance than anything.
One idea we thrown around some time ago: being able to buy a Home. To actually take over a farm, manor, hall etc. Once you're able to that you could look into modding in stuff like farming or house upgrades.
Hm, maybe even not a Home but just a piece of land? And then build your own house (or even keep?) there.
- Magicono43
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- Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:06 am
Re: [Think Tank] What Sorts Of Things Can Help Keep Gold Valuable Throughout The Game?
I think that would be pretty interesting, the mod i'm working on has an "investment" system in order to give the player a way to overtime "groom" a shop to have the gold supply that they might find more sustainable, but it takes time and a fair upfront gold investment. It would definitely be cool to do this with various factions/guilds and have this have an actual effect on the game-world in some way.
- Magicono43
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Re: [Think Tank] What Sorts Of Things Can Help Keep Gold Valuable Throughout The Game?
I do agree that gold being harder to get money from just looting enemies should be less fruitful, as you said it would make quest rewards of gold actually be a higher motivation for doing it instead of just rep and dungeon loot. I do still think that some services should be more expensive though, like at least having a room for a night be more expensive than a bowl of gruel, lol. This would in-turn allow the super high-ticket items to be reduced in price as well to be more inline with everything else.Ralzar wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 6:19 am One idea we thrown around some time ago: being able to buy a Home. To actually take over a farm, manor, hall etc. Once you're able to that you could look into modding in stuff like farming or house upgrades.
Hm, maybe even not a Home but just a piece of land? And then build your own house (or even keep?) there.
I do agree that the "housing system" of the game could use an overhaul in some kind, at the very least being able to own and buy your own plot/plots of land in the game, and customize it as you wish, basically make your own home-base if you like, or something very simple.
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Re: [Think Tank] What Sorts Of Things Can Help Keep Gold Valuable Throughout The Game?
Hi, I really like the idea of buying manors, farms etc (I think I read somewhere a proposal about a "mansion" development, which I think would be great)
Here some personal ideas of mine about what could be done to make/spend some money.
Treasures or nothing: with the idea of making the quest reward the main source of gain, the thing is to make less possible to find gold in the dungeons, with the only exception of big treasures (amounts of several hundreds or thousands of gold). It will be possible to find some coins on enemies bodies or in some loots, but won't be possible to find amounts of 100-200 gold scattered around the dungeon
Buy shops: the bank could offer to purchase, other than homes, also some of the shops/inns available in the city. If you purchase a shop, you will have a monthly income depending on the quality of the shop you purchased and by some random factors. The income will arrive directly on your bank account.
Rent house: honestly I never managed to purchase an house in Daggerfall only with the gold gained with quests (do you?). So why not give the possibility to rent an house from the bank? You will have to open a bank account and every month the rent will be subtracted by it. If you are not able to pay the rent anymore you will be kicked out and every item you have stored in the house will be lost!
Life of a merchant: an alternative way to make money for the characters who are not so strong in dungeon crawling. There could be some quests available in some shops in which the goal is to transport a cargo of goods from a city to another, possibly even to another and distant region. This would requires the player to own a wagon and the creation of a "super bulky" item (the cargo) which can be loaded in the wagon only. As long as the players has the cargo, he will be allowed to move only by foot, wagon or ship (no horse). The reward could be very high especially for very long trips. Combined with the tedious travel mod and the climates and calories, this could be a very huge adventure to be done with lots of possible things happening along the way!
Here some personal ideas of mine about what could be done to make/spend some money.
Treasures or nothing: with the idea of making the quest reward the main source of gain, the thing is to make less possible to find gold in the dungeons, with the only exception of big treasures (amounts of several hundreds or thousands of gold). It will be possible to find some coins on enemies bodies or in some loots, but won't be possible to find amounts of 100-200 gold scattered around the dungeon
Buy shops: the bank could offer to purchase, other than homes, also some of the shops/inns available in the city. If you purchase a shop, you will have a monthly income depending on the quality of the shop you purchased and by some random factors. The income will arrive directly on your bank account.
Rent house: honestly I never managed to purchase an house in Daggerfall only with the gold gained with quests (do you?). So why not give the possibility to rent an house from the bank? You will have to open a bank account and every month the rent will be subtracted by it. If you are not able to pay the rent anymore you will be kicked out and every item you have stored in the house will be lost!
Life of a merchant: an alternative way to make money for the characters who are not so strong in dungeon crawling. There could be some quests available in some shops in which the goal is to transport a cargo of goods from a city to another, possibly even to another and distant region. This would requires the player to own a wagon and the creation of a "super bulky" item (the cargo) which can be loaded in the wagon only. As long as the players has the cargo, he will be allowed to move only by foot, wagon or ship (no horse). The reward could be very high especially for very long trips. Combined with the tedious travel mod and the climates and calories, this could be a very huge adventure to be done with lots of possible things happening along the way!
- Magicono43
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Re: [Think Tank] What Sorts Of Things Can Help Keep Gold Valuable Throughout The Game?
1. As Ralzar mentioned as well, I definitely agree with making finding gold during dungeon crawling a much more infrequent occurrence, as to keep any gold reward from an associated quest from becoming mostly worthless after killing two enemies or so.andromacus wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 3:54 pm Hi, I really like the idea of buying manors, farms etc (I think I read somewhere a proposal about a "mansion" development, which I think would be great)
Here some personal ideas of mine about what could be done to make/spend some money.
2. I also agree that being able to buy more property than just a house as a good idea. In this case, it would also be great if the player could do more with the shop than just gaining an income flow from it, but being able to have decisions on how it operates and such.
3. I think house rental is also not a bad idea, but I sort of look at taverns as filling that sort of purpose, as you can currently rent an inn room for 350 days in a row, for a very cheap price as well I will say, lol.
4. There is another thread that was made recently discussing this sort of play-style of being a merchant rather than just a dungeon crawling adventurer, and I definitely think this should become something eventually. Here is that thread: viewtopic.php?p=44189#p44189
Appreciate the input.
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Re: [Think Tank] What Sorts Of Things Can Help Keep Gold Valuable Throughout The Game?
Glad to help how I can!
About point #3: yes, it is true that you can rent a room at the inn for potentially infinite number of days, but I don't think you can store any of your equipment there, correct (I mean, I think if you leave the city and then come back all you have dropped on the ground is deleted)? So maybe this could give some additional sense to the idea of renting the house
About point #3: yes, it is true that you can rent a room at the inn for potentially infinite number of days, but I don't think you can store any of your equipment there, correct (I mean, I think if you leave the city and then come back all you have dropped on the ground is deleted)? So maybe this could give some additional sense to the idea of renting the house
- Magicono43
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Re: [Think Tank] What Sorts Of Things Can Help Keep Gold Valuable Throughout The Game?
From what I have read, (I could be incorrect here) i'm pretty sure that an inn with a "rented" flag works differently than a non-rented inn, in this regard. I'm fairly sure that loot piles will stick around in an inn that has a currently rented room, just like a house would, but after expiring the loot piles are no longer "protected".andromacus wrote: ↑Thu May 28, 2020 4:24 pm Glad to help how I can!
About point #3: yes, it is true that you can rent a room at the inn for potentially infinite number of days, but I don't think you can store any of your equipment there, correct (I mean, I think if you leave the city and then come back all you have dropped on the ground is deleted)? So maybe this could give some additional sense to the idea of renting the house