[MOD] Sneak and Crouch Combined

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jefetienne
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Re: [MOD] Sneak and Crouch Combined

Post by jefetienne »

Hazelnut wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 7:10 pm Maybe you could add a description of how DF sneaking works to the description, and then say that the mod simplifies those mechanics to be more like modern streamlined games for those that prefer it?
Good idea - description has been updated.
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Regnier
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Re: [MOD] Sneak and Crouch Combined

Post by Regnier »

Ralzar wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 9:04 pm
Regnier wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 5:47 pm This is down the line but allowing sneak run at higher levels opens up gameplay.
Isn’t that just called «run»? Or if you want slower: «walk»?

It’s not like you have to keep sneak pressed for stealth checks to be made.
i thought you had a better chance of sneaking while going 50% or less of walk speed. With sneak run you could still have a 50% speed to sneak but actually pretty much be at your full running running speed. Higher level ability.

if stealth is always checked to the same degree then what is the sneak button?

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Hazelnut
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Re: [MOD] Sneak and Crouch Combined

Post by Hazelnut »

jefetienne wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 9:25 pm
Hazelnut wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 7:10 pm Maybe you could add a description of how DF sneaking works to the description, and then say that the mod simplifies those mechanics to be more like modern streamlined games for those that prefer it?
Good idea - description has been updated.
What do you mean by crouching doesn't make you quieter?
See my mod code for examples of how to change various aspects of DFU: https://github.com/ajrb/dfunity-mods

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Ralzar
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Re: [MOD] Sneak and Crouch Combined

Post by Ralzar »

Hazelnut wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 8:44 am
jefetienne wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 9:25 pm
Hazelnut wrote: Fri Oct 02, 2020 7:10 pm Maybe you could add a description of how DF sneaking works to the description, and then say that the mod simplifies those mechanics to be more like modern streamlined games for those that prefer it?
Good idea - description has been updated.
What do you mean by crouching doesn't make you quieter?
Yeah, I was wondering that as well. It's not like the game has an actual sound listening system right?
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jefetienne
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Re: [MOD] Sneak and Crouch Combined

Post by jefetienne »

I'm pretty sure it makes you quieter? Have you noticed that when sneaking your footstep volume is reduced, and if you sneak on a horse it plays a walking audio clip?
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Ralzar
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Re: [MOD] Sneak and Crouch Combined

Post by Ralzar »

jefetienne wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 3:22 pm I'm pretty sure it makes you quieter? Have you noticed that when sneaking your footstep volume is reduced, and if you sneak on a horse it plays a walking audio clip?
Yes, but does that game-mechanically achieve anything? Like, a bonus to stealth checks?
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jefetienne
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Re: [MOD] Sneak and Crouch Combined

Post by jefetienne »

Ralzar wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 3:58 pm
jefetienne wrote: Sat Oct 03, 2020 3:22 pm I'm pretty sure it makes you quieter? Have you noticed that when sneaking your footstep volume is reduced, and if you sneak on a horse it plays a walking audio clip?
Yes, but does that game-mechanically achieve anything? Like, a bonus to stealth checks?
Hmm, I thought I heard somewhere that it did, but now after checking the forums and the PR that implemented the volume changes, you might be right that does not provide a stealth bonus. Unless if crouching and sneaking have different speeds, then it really seems like the sneak key doesn't have much purpose other than to slow down the crouching.
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fosley
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Re: [MOD] Sneak and Crouch Combined

Post by fosley »

The standard description of classic Daggerfall is that your sneak chance is based on distance to the enemy, your stealth, their stealth, and your movement speed. Source.

Movement speed is a combination of crouching and slow/walk/run modifiers. The sneak button slows you way down. The run button speeds you up. Using neither is your normal speed. Crouching slows you down independently of those.

Roughly speaking:
  • 200% = upright running -------------
  • 100% = upright walking or crouch running
  • 50% = upright sneaking or crouch walking
  • 25% = ------------- crouch sneaking
Actual run speed (relative to walking) will depend on your run skill. All speeds are affected by your speed stat. The numbers above are probably not exactly accurate.

I'm not sure what the exact formula is for detection chance, but you get stealth checks at any speed until you're spotted. At that point, you have to sneak, crouch, or crouch sneak to get stealth checks once you've evaded the enemy who spotted you (leave line of sight and/or search distance). The enemy will automatically detect you if you walk or run (or, presumably, crouch run) for the next 8 hours.

I don't play stealth builds in Daggerfall, so I can't guarantee that's accurate, but I know the rough speeds are (it's easy to test: just load a game and push buttons :D ). I'm assuming DFU works similarly to DF classic.

Assuming all of the above is true, this mod simply makes getting your best sneak chance (lowest movement speed) a one-button affair, instead of a two-button affair.

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Personally, I really abhor the annoyance of tying stealth to crouching. It's generally harder to be quiet when you're crouched down and your muscles are strained by the odd angle, unless you're talking about 50 feet per hour kinds of sneaking (at which point you're crawling, not crouching). So there's no "realism" to it (1). And it's quite annoying not being able to simply stick your head over a wall to see without suddenly being in "not stealthy" mode.

Daggerfall's mechanics at least try to make a little sense: sneaking means you're walking carefully, to avoid making noise. Crouching means you're ducked down. They're different things, so they should have different initiators. Unfortunately, the mechanics then tie additional speed reduction to crouch sneaking, so you end up having to crouch everywhere anyways if you want to be really stealthy.

And, frankly, crouching has no purpose in Daggerfall except to sneak better, since you aren't taking cover behind walls or barricades, there are no vents to crawl through, there's rarely a point where you might crouch to shoot under something, and there's no accuracy bonus to firing while sitting or kneeling (nor would that make sense with bows or melee weapons -- if anything, it would again be harder while crouched).

(1) It does make sense if crouching behind something has a better chance to break line of sight than standing up behind it, if the something is waist high. But it doesn't make you quieter. And, realistically, a person walking slowly but upright is less likely to be noticed as an outsider than someone crouched down doing the duck walk. So the "you see me, but think I belong here" aspect of sneaking should be higher while walking normally, not lower (if Daggerfall had such a check).

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My preference would be to set sneaking and crouching to the same speed, so if you want to play a stealth build, you don't have to stare at orc crotch all day. At which point you could just bind whichever button you prefer to your standard "crouch/sneak" button and ignore the other if you want. But that's a different mod.

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pango
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Re: [MOD] Sneak and Crouch Combined

Post by pango »

fosley wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 11:54 pm And, frankly, crouching has no purpose in Daggerfall except to sneak better, since you aren't taking cover behind walls or barricades, there are no vents to crawl through, [...]
Mmmh I can think of at least one underwater passage you need to be crouching to get thru. Swimming has been modified to force crouching automatically so now you don't really need to think about crouching explicitly, but it's still technically required.

There's also those dungeon "windows", that were hazardous to get thru in classic (could easily get stuck or fall thru the geometry) but that are now easily traversed with crouching + jumping.
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Ralzar
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Re: [MOD] Sneak and Crouch Combined

Post by Ralzar »

Hm, would be cool to have some narrow tunnels you had to crawl through. Probably with giant rats inside :D
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