Welcome to the forums Gaggerballz!
Gaggerballz wrote:For me personally, I would be VERY hesitant to remove, ahem "streamline"cough cough any skills from the game, Bethesda and Todd Howard have seen to that plenty over the ensuing 20 years since DF was published and I would be sick at the thought of the dark course of modern AAA games being brought to DFU.
I believe people come to see that I have a lot of very ambitious, and sometimes out-of-touch, ideas for DFU. The streamlining idea was one of them, based generally on how frustrating it was to fill 12 character skills when I only used like 6 for an entire character
Gaggerballz wrote:Even the more conceptually cool but practically useless skills like the languages I would much rather see somehow tweaked to have some meaningful in-game purpose rather than outright nixed. A few of the skill combinations from MW such as combining running/swimming into athletics and climbing/jumping into acrobatics would work fine and makes some sense.
I think our main impediment is the creativity gap. A well-rounded language system, and a way to make every
skill in Daggerfall meaningful and worthwhile, would make the whole game feel really robust. Since we haven't figured out a way to do that (and it looks to us very hard to do), I think several of us have thought of alternatives. I would certainly make building rather than cutting from Daggerfall my first priority, if we could figure out how.
As I mentioned earlier, a couple skills I feel that should be added if possible would be armor skills. These were an almost necessary addition that MW got right IMO. In fact, after years of not playing DF I recently did another playthrough and was shocked when I realized the game didn't have armor skills, they seem like such a logical and natural integration to the game. In fact, as I believe has been discussed further in the armors thread, the entire armor system in DF is a bit wonky to say the least, which MW later improved (while adding a ton of its own new wonkiness
), and could stand some polishing.
I expect that to be a part of Daggerfall's D&D heritage. I'm very unfamiliar with D&D mechanics but I don't expect armor skills to be a large part of character development. I assume their addition to TES 3-4 were to try to validate every character path equally, which is something we could say Daggerfall was weaker about.
Gaggerballz wrote:The only change I would like to see to these existing systems if any would be to make starting attributes/skills lower and advancement more difficult, as it is a tad too easy in vanilla DF/MW to not only become a "jack of all trades" but a master, although nowhere near to the level of later games. Likewise, some way to balance/improve stealth and magic to make them more viable as alternative play styles would be welcome.
I agree. I'm always amazed that within about 3 days of playing I can already have a level 10 master wizard who can mow down all of Tamriel. The difficulty will be in ensuring new players don't get shut out by excessive difficulty. In some cases, like Skyrim's Requiem mod, the high level of difficulty is an attractor and not a distractor, and I think that's a good concept to aim for.
Howdy good sir, and thanks for the in depth reply and welcome! Just for the record, I certainly didn't mean any offense to anyone or their ideas with my original post, I was just arguing for my perspective, as this issue is something I'm very passionate about(as I'm sure we all are). With regards to the language skills, while I love the idea in theory, in actual practice it was essentially useless and while I still feel it could have been tweaked, perhaps simplified and put to some immersive and roleplaying use in MW, for DF if anything was to be cut as superfluous they would be my first choice.
As for armor skills and D&D, while I never actually played any pen and paper tabletop games(I grew up in the boonies
), I played many of the console and CRPG D&D games of the time and can attest that armor skills were not present, the only variance was that certain classes were limited in what types of armor they could use. The same goes for weapons as well actually, the D&D games and system of the time to my knowledge actually didn't feature skills at all, your class determined what you could and couldn't do completely. For example, any warrior could use any weapon equally, sword mace, axe etc. The weapons themselves had varying dice roll values. Ditto for the various armor types. That was one of the quantum leaps Daggerfall made and one of the many reasons I fell in love with it back in the day, the addition of unique skills and most importantly, linking the use of those skills to player class and experience gain, and doing away with the standard rpg D&D system of experience points completely. While seemingly obvious now, at the time this was an absolutely REVOLUTIONARY concept and advancement of RPG mechanics, and one that would quickly become almost the new standard, with even D&D abandoning their old rules and updating to a more in depth DF/MW approach a few years later. Again, to me, after playing MW and the later games for years, I had glossed over in my memory the fact that DF actually didn't incorporate armor skills, as their implementation in MW seemed so natural and an obvious advancement from the groundwork laid in DF. A final aside on aside on this topic, Arena, if memory serves, actually didn't utilize DF's groundbreaking skills system either(although it did feature the classic 7 attributes) and followed the antiquated D&D system of experience points. After experiencing the DF system, however, as an avid rpg fan, it was impossible to go back. Daggerfall brilliantly improved upon these mechanics and added such freedom and depth to the rpg gaming experience it was really a complete game changer.
I agree completely about the concept of the Requiem mod for Skyrim, I would just add that happily, since DF is an actual honest to God RPG in the first place, nothing anywhere near the extent of Requiem is needed, just IMO some minor adjustments here and there provided by 20 years hindsight
. As for new players being turned off by excessive difficulty, they can play Skyrim
. Seriously though, who HASN'T died in Privateer's Hold at least once?