Discussion on armor

Discuss modding questions and implementation details.
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NikitaTheTanner
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Re: Discussion on weapons and armor

Postby NikitaTheTanner » Sat Aug 26, 2017 7:46 pm

This is ok approach as well, but it is complicated. I would say -make FPS character work and than just after that, turn to make full 3D animated UI Character representation.

Yes, I agree on this, but we'll need to make other NPCs and enemies 3D at one point or another, then it can be extended to the player as well. In later TES games player is just another NPC (which is a bit contradictory in the name :) ). It's all parts of one system.

What I am saying is, first we make first person 3D, then we make other NPCs 3D and then extend that to the player. If we won't make other characters 3D, 3D weapons would look out of place IMHO. It should still be our first step, but shouldn't be our last one. Making pre-rendered character doll might be more of a time waste though, as sooner or later we'll need to replace it.

I like your graph, it's very useful, but remember that we do not have to make every humanoid unique. Ideally, we'll make a character constructor in game. Then both player and NPCs will use the same equipment.
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LorrMaster42
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Re: Discussion on weapons and armor

Postby LorrMaster42 » Sat Aug 26, 2017 8:05 pm

I know Star Citizen has an interesting FPS system where the camera is literally attached to the face of the player character and the animations are made to look good in both first and third person.

As for the armors, material-specific styles can look repetative, too. It always annoyed me in Skyrim how every piece of iron armor looked exactly the same and I refused to wear certain armors because I hated their look so much. Dwemer armor only looks special if you haven't seen it ten times already.
ironmaskofhell
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Re: Discussion on weapons and armor

Postby ironmaskofhell » Sat Aug 26, 2017 8:30 pm

Sorry for making the topic first :) , I felt like getting it done rather then waiting on somebody else and me filling somebody else's thread with off topic weapon design.
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NikitaTheTanner
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Re: Discussion on weapons and armor

Postby NikitaTheTanner » Sat Aug 26, 2017 8:55 pm

Sorry for making the topic first :)

No need to be sorry, it's all cool! As you can see, we're already deeply in the process of discussing :)

I know Star Citizen has an interesting FPS system where the camera is literally attached to the face of the player character and the animations are made to look good in both first and third person.

Yeah, that seems like the best option in the long run, though it would be harder to implement straight away. We won't need to make 1st person specific animations, though how fluid combat would be with 3rd person ones only I am not sure.

In the end, we can always make a hybrid system, where 1st person camera combines 1st person animations with some of the 3rd person ones, so that you are able to see your body properly. Meaning that we can focus on 1st person first, then add some support for body visibility when 3rd person gets done. Kinda like this mod, which I absolutely love - http://www.nexusmods.com/oblivion/mods/ ... w%3D&pUp=1

As for the armors, material-specific styles can look repetative, too. It always annoyed me in Skyrim how every piece of iron armor looked exactly the same and I refused to wear certain armors because I hated their look so much.

Several ideas about that. Can material armors look repetative? Yes. There might be just a few styles of armor you really enjoy, while everything else looks like crap. Absolutely. But doesn't that make getting better armor pieces that much more rewarding? ;)

Some armors are designed not to look too special, though we should obviously avoid making crap, there should be some beauty to all designs. But it's impossible to satisfy everyone with everything, so some things we will not like and will have to work extra hard in game to get our hands on that sweet-sweet favorite set. If you can get this favorite set from the beginning, just with worse stats, is it really that rewarding?

As for variety, I believe that having a few options per set should take care of that to some extent. Though that should come after the sets are done, otherwise it would be really hard to finish.
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Dwemer armor only looks special if you haven't seen it ten times already.

I am actually not sure where you can see Dwemer armor ten times in Skyrim, as far as I am aware it's really rare. They didn't kill looting system like they did in Oblivion by giving every bandit every rare piece up to Daedric.

But crafting though... I like the idea of crafting, but the way it's implemented in Skyrim really discourages exploration. You don't need any schemes, you just learn everything from the stars after making hundreds of iron daggers. Plus all the materials become available at the local smith. It could be handled better, I think.
ironmaskofhell
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Re: Discussion on armor

Postby ironmaskofhell » Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:28 pm

Hey Nikita, I took your advice and made the weapons and armor separate topics. I think it's for the better; it makes the topic less messy and easier to focus on two separate things.
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LorrMaster42
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Re: Discussion on armor

Postby LorrMaster42 » Sun Aug 27, 2017 5:45 am

For the 2D vs 3D discussion, what would be the performance impact of each? If we wanted to do a city siege, how many characters could we have fighting? I know pathfinding is a big hit, but that could also be optimized for certain situations.
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Jay_H
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Re: Discussion on armor

Postby Jay_H » Sun Aug 27, 2017 6:08 am

I think Mount and Blade provides a good example of large-scale combat with mid-2000s graphics. The population limits vary based on your computer hardware, but generally 60 to 120 soldiers on the field at a time is a pretty average range, I think. It requires a good computer, but not Alienware.
Come give your feedback on the ideas in my general thread, and share your DFU characters in the character thread.
Quest-writing tutorial here. Guide for new Daggerfall players here.
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NikitaTheTanner
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Re: Discussion on armor

Postby NikitaTheTanner » Sun Aug 27, 2017 9:57 am

I think Mount and Blade provides a good example of large-scale combat with mid-2000s graphics. The population limits vary based on your computer hardware, but generally 60 to 120 soldiers on the field at a time is a pretty average range, I think. It requires a good computer, but not Alienware.

Yes, yes and yes! Mount and Blade is a good example to stride towards in many ways! It's a solid game with solid combat system, maybe a bit rough around the edges, but definitely works good enough. Graphics are okay, combat has it's own complexity and landing a good blow feels very satisfying.

Most importantly, it was build by a relatively small studio with little experience, so I believe that this level should be to some extent be achievable for us as well. Except, we have many more creature types, of course, that would be very tough to model and animate, but NPC/Player designs, combat system and graphics level - I think we can achieve, even if Daggefall style should be slightly different, of course.
ironmaskofhell
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Re: Discussion on armor

Postby ironmaskofhell » Sun Aug 27, 2017 11:35 pm

Inspirational pictures, to get a better idea of what I think armor should look like. Not to 100% copy.


Steel:
Image

I show some more inspiration pictures later.
Last edited by ironmaskofhell on Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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NikitaTheTanner
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Re: Discussion on armor

Postby NikitaTheTanner » Sun Aug 27, 2017 11:50 pm

Okay, so I've collected some concepts for future armors, though they are also not perfect and just show what direction I think we can go with each piece. I've also separated armor into three categories, as I've originally planned - Light, Composite and Plate.

Original game had 12 armor sets, 10 of which were plate. In my plan, there are approximately 16 sets, but we can skip some in the process to return to them later. Main idea is to give each category something useful while trying to keep original armors intact.

I understand that this will take a few years possibly and we still need more people, but at least we are thinking about it now. Finally, I've also added some gameplay ideas for each armor, though it should be optional, of course, and even if these ideas will be realized, every plan might change ten times from now. So, here are the armors:

Light Armors

Padded Armor - armor made of simple cloth. Cheap and very common, but protects reasonably well against slashing and bludgeoning.
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Fur Armor - thick clothing for harsh cold. Rather cheap and common, offers some protection from slashing, bludgeoning and cold.
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Leather Armor - slightly more expensive leather gear. Offers additional protection from piercing damage, though not by much.
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Mithril Armor - thin as cloth, but strong as steel. Expensive and rare armor, offers good protection from piercing and slashing damage, but doesn't reduce bludgeoning damage by much.
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Elven Armor - rather thick and made of metal, but still surprisingly light. This armor offers really good protection from slashing, piercing and bludgeoning damage, but makes wearer more susceptible to magic attacks.
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Composite Armors

Chainmail Armor - common armor, especially popular among High Rock infantry. It's cheaper and lighter than plate armor, protects reasonably well against slashing and bludgeoning, but can be easily pierced.
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Lamellar Armor - favorite armor of Redguard warriors. Still rather cheap, offers good protection from slashing and bludgeoning, slightly better against piercing damage, but has lesser durability.
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Reinforced Armor - brigandine type armor, essentially metal plates covered by leather. Better protection from slashing, bludgeoning and piercing, but reduces mobility slightly more.
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Orcish Armor - well crafted lamellar armor of orichalcum. Orcs are talented smiths, but orichalcum is a rare metal and these armors are very expensive. They provide very good protection from slashing and even piercing, though it is slightly weaker to bludgeoning damage.
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Adamantium Armor - very sturdy and relatively light armor. This armor balances between Plate and Composite, but due to its light weight it still belongs to the latter. Very good protection from slashing, but has slight weakness to both piercing and bludgeoning, though not as much as other composite armors do. High durability.
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Plate Armors

Iron Armor - cheapest among Plate armors, but still somewhat expensive and very heavy. It offers good protection from slashing and piercing, but reduces mobility, reduces stamina regeneration and is still susceptible to bludgeoning strikes.
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Steel Armor - standard Plate armor, more expensive and still heavy. It offers even better protection from slashing and piercing, but reduces mobility, reduces stamina regeneration and is still susceptible to bludgeoning strikes.
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Silver Armor - expensive Plate armor, made by combining Steel with Silver, as a result has lesser durability. It does offer good protection from slashing and piercing, but also protects user from negative magic effects. Still bears negative effects of plate armors.
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Dwarven Armor - rare Dwarven armor, very heavy and very expensive. It offers very good protection from slashing and piercing damage, but reduces mobility, reduces stamina regeneration and is still susceptible to bludgeoning strikes. It offers additonal protection from Fire, since Dwarven metal has lesser thermal conductivity.
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Ebony Armor - exquisite Ebony armor, slightly lighter than other Plate armors. It offers great protection from slashing and piercing damage, but reduces mobility, reduces stamina regeneration and is still susceptible to bludgeoning strikes. It offers additonal protection from Shock, since Ebony is not a metal, but a volcanic glass.
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Daedric Armor - legendary Daedric armor, heaviest and most valuable of all. It offers best protection from slashing, piercing damage and even protects well from bludgeoning damage, but still reduces mobility and stamina regeneration. It offers additonal protection from Frost due to the fierce nature of Daedric spirits inhabiting the armor. It also strongly reduces wearer's Personality attribute.
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P.S. Seems like I am not the only one collecting concepts :D This topic will get cramped soon I feel! :o

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