Discussion on weapons

Discuss modding questions and implementation details.
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VMblast
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Re: Discussion on weapons

Postby VMblast » Sun Aug 27, 2017 8:29 am

ironmaskofhell wrote:I love the concept art however I hate how in every fantasy game the iron weapons are always design to look shoddy and rough to make other weapons look better. I think our iron weapons should look like there in good condition.

There is good realistic reason for it. The iron is notorious to maintain -weather, moisture, temperature...all this influence it in a great deal. Iron need constant hard work, polishing and scrubbing if you want it to be "shiny and new". In ancient times whether/rain and moisture were normal day of life, not like today where you can actually take good care of iron pieces.

So yeah in start, when its a new weapon, or really good maintained, it will look like this:
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However, if you loosen up just a little bit, it starts to decay:
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Also, in an (DF) age where you have actual steel, why bother too much with the iron? This metal is the cheapest poormans weapon that you can find and its a dime a dozen. Thats why it should look like its already have some patina.
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VMblast
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Re: Discussion on weapons

Postby VMblast » Sun Aug 27, 2017 8:38 am

Also, this guys made FPS melee action combat really good. Something to think about for the future -MODs- ;)

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NikitaTheTanner
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Re: Discussion on weapons

Postby NikitaTheTanner » Sun Aug 27, 2017 9:50 am

Also, this guys made FPS melee action combat really good. Something to think about for the future -MODs- ;)

I agree, thanks for bringing it up, looks really sweet, I totally enjoyed Mordhau's videos. But I am not sure if it's feasible to achieve, at least not for a very long time. So much work! I think you agree :) It would be cool, but I'd be satisfied with Mount'n'Blade like combat - it's relatively simple, yet has it's own complexity and is rather satisfying overall.

I love the concept art however I hate how in every fantasy game the iron weapons are always design to look shoddy and rough to make other weapons look better. I think our iron weapons should look like there in good condition.

That's possible, I suppose, but we need to think about how practical it would be. We do need some shoddy and rough weapons to give to bandits, skeletons, etc. Maybe we can have one set with two textures - new and worn out, but what about smithing? You can repair weapons and it would look strange if the weapons looked the same after repairs...

Perhaps, best system would be where weapon look will be determined by their condition, but that is a very complex system. It would require more scripts and more texture work. As a base, rough weapons are better I think. Later on, we can build on that. I would also love to see ability to improve weapons later on.

I also like your gameplay ideas a lot but I think we should keep gameplay changes different from weapon models. Like separate mods that are compatible with each other for people who like one but not the other.

Here, it's a stick of two ends. On one hand, I do want to provide people with possibility to decide for themselves what they want from their game and I don't want to push my own arbitrary views on everyone.

On the other hand, we can't think about new designs without thinking about gameplay changes. How are we going separate armors, for example? Are we going to keep vanilla armor system, just because some people would definitely prefer it? But in that case the models we'll need would be completely different from if we were, for example, to think of rebalanced system.

Same way with weapons - are we going to bring new weapon types? Are we going to make them different from one another? Systemic changes that affect everyone to the same extent ensure that what we build would be a default system for everyone, so we can build on top of it in future mods, bringing even more potential content to the game. It's impossible to do without taking some risks.

Though I agree, there should be customization settings where you should be able to bring everything to more or less vanilla system in options menu. It shouldn't be the main focus though, just an option for people who don't want to see many changes. If we focus on simply recreating same system in 3D, we'll just waste a lot of opportunities.

Changes though shouldn't be arbitrary, we should talk about them, test their implementation, make sure everything works smoothly and without many bugs, then make them. It would be a slow process, but well worth it in my opinion.
ironmaskofhell
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Re: Discussion on weapons

Postby ironmaskofhell » Sun Aug 27, 2017 10:48 am

Thanks for reply VMblast, now it makes sense why iron weapons and armor is rough and shoddy in most games. I also like the gameplay video you showed, but I prefer dice roll combat in Daggerfall but with great animation.
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Re: Discussion on weapons

Postby ironmaskofhell » Sun Aug 27, 2017 10:58 am

I can see your point nikita, and I would be okay with changing the gameplay system if it was necessary, like making a 4 slot system if it made implementing armor easier, I just like to give people more options to change the game as much as they can or make it as vanilla friendly as they can.
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NikitaTheTanner
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Re: Discussion on weapons

Postby NikitaTheTanner » Sun Aug 27, 2017 11:02 am

Thanks for reply VMblast, now it makes sense why iron weapons and armor is rough and shoddy in most games. I also like the gameplay video you showed, but I prefer dice roll combat in Daggerfall but with great animation.

Dice roll should definitely stay as an option, even if it is not for everyone. I personally am not a fan of dice roll, since it doesn't look great in 3D and removes active part from the player, often forcing me to resort to save scumming :(

Dark Messiah is an awesome experience and an old game already, I know how much everyone liked it back in the day, every mod tried to copy it to Oblivion:


I do not suggest copying it though, it's very much an overkill for a game like Daggefall, just remembered playing it and it certainly has some interesting mechanics. Overall, more active combat would be great, in my opinion, while certain stats still influence your performance, so it is still an RPG and not just action game. But as you said, dice roll should be optional with new models and animations.
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Re: Discussion on weapons

Postby ironmaskofhell » Sun Aug 27, 2017 2:27 pm

Although I prefer dice roll I don't mind an action like combat as well, as long as people keep classes, attributes, and skills and don't replace them all with perks, butchering role playing altogether then i'm fine. I'm joking about Skyrim by the way. But seriously Oblivion is probably the best example of action combat it's easier to replicate then dark messiah and mordau.
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NikitaTheTanner
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Re: Discussion on weapons

Postby NikitaTheTanner » Sun Aug 27, 2017 4:37 pm

Although I prefer dice roll I don't mind an action like combat as well, as long as people keep classes, attributes, and skills and don't replace them all with perks, butchering role playing altogether then i'm fine. I'm joking about Skyrim by the way. But seriously Oblivion is probably the best example of action combat it's easier to replicate then dark messiah and mordau.

Oblivion has its own mess of problems and it really isn't that great or easy, especially with all the special moves it has which aren't even all that fun. Look up Mount and Blade, it's fairly simple and really engaging. You have attacks from multiple directions, you can block multiple directions with your weapon and all directions with a shield.

Obviously, there would need to be some minor adjustments as M&B is designed to work around large battlefields with heavy emphasis on horse combat. But with a few alterations, like blocking reducing stamina and adding stagger effect to some attacks, it could be pretty engaging system for 1st person close quarters combat. I am thinking of slightly mixing M&B with Dark Souls, but without lock on system or rolling from the latter.

Should be fairly straight-forward, simple and engaging. You'll have to move a little more than you do in original daggerfall and think about what direction you want to attack, conserve your Stamina in combat, but nothing more really. Just don't stand in one place, don't let your enemies surround you, look for opportunity to attack and you are good. Should work really well with Daggerfall's mouse directed attack system, which I absolutely love and which makes combat more involved in my opinion.

Perhaps there could be an option to disable mouse directed attacks for more click based ones, but I myself prefer vanilla in this aspect.

P.S. I have no plans to abandon any of the RPG elements, instead I think of replacing some of them with even more interesting ones. I love RPG games and the depth they provide. Some things can be streamlined and even Perks might be added, but more like Fallout 1/2, not Fallout 4 definitely. More actual depth is what I want in the end, not arcade gameplay.

I prefer to avoid dice roll situations where possible, since you can always abuse them and they often lead to more frustration, than actual fun. It's not table-top RPG after all and you can always load a safe which all of us did at some point.
ironmaskofhell
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Re: Discussion on weapons

Postby ironmaskofhell » Sun Aug 27, 2017 5:08 pm

I did not mean to say oblivion's combat was great (it definitely isn't) or that it would be easy to implement, I was trying to say that oblivion like combat would probably be easier to implement then the other two games which look too advance to handle for a small group of people. Your idea sounds good though and I have played mount and blade for years, it's one of my favorite games.

P.S I know you would never abandon any Rpg elements, I was just making fun of Bethesda. I am okay with perks as long as they're handled like the fallout games you mentioned or like Deus Ex gmdx. Perks should always be additional, not as a main feature.
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NikitaTheTanner
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Re: Discussion on weapons

Postby NikitaTheTanner » Sun Aug 27, 2017 7:19 pm

So, my ideas on every weapon material present in the game. We might add more types later on, but first let's focus on original ones.

Here are all Weapons from Daggerfall - http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Weapons

Illustrations I use are from later games or other resources, which I felt best show my idea for a material. Doesn't mean we need to copy them in any way, just to share my picture overall.

:!: I don't like many of these designs and I think we can do much better, but they illustrate my point rather well.

Materials:
Iron Weapons - rough and cheap, massively produced weapons, often utilized by bandits, adventurers, mercenaries, and poor people, who can't afford something better. Fairly straightforward, nothing special about them, but they are cheap and can be quite effective.

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Steel Weapons - polished and practical, most used weapon by soldiers and knights. More expensive and reliable than iron weapon, but nothing too fancy.

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Silver Weapons - intricate and beautiful, but fairly realistic designs. Mostly used by clerics and rich nobility, they are not as sturdy, but the material is useful against supernatural dangers.

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Elven Weapons - unusually elegant weapons crafted by the elves who carefully protect secrets of its creation. Can be found in ancient dungeons or wielded by very rich people.

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Dwarven Weapons - mechanical and gear like weapons, created by the Dwarves, who disappeared long ago from Tamriel. Mostly found in Dwarven Ruins, scattered around the north of Tamriel, including Morrowind, Skyrim and Hammerfell provinces.

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Mithril Weapons - honestly, here we can use our imagination. In original game, these weapons are blue which looks kinda cool. I assume it's some sort of "blessed" material, but that's just my idea. Picture from Oblivion, but it's a clear rip off from LoTR.

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Adamantium Weapons - adamantium weapons are very light and sturdy, unusually so. Rare material found throughout Tamriel, utilized by the very rich who can afford it. So, something fantasy like as well, but more human-like in design. Used image from one of the mods for Oblivion, nothing to do with Adamantium, but kinda looks like what I think it should look like.

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Orcish Weapons - pretty much what you expect from Orcish weapons, but more elaborate and sturdy. Slightly green color.

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Ebony Weapons - technically made of obsidian, volcanic glass, but looks more like black metal in items. Relatively heavy and dark, but often used with golden decorations to make it look more majestic. Once again, kinda human, but this one is often used by the elitest of the elite, very expensive. Also often used by vampires and darker characters. Think Death Knight, but noble and intricate. Also used by good guys as well, so not too dark :)

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Daedric Weapons - demonic weapons, often combination of black and glowing red. They appear to have evil spirit within them. Give freedom to your imagination pretty much. I like the overall aesthetic of Morrowind's weapons, though some of them are fairly generic, but the color contrast is pretty good and some pieces are really cool.

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P.S. Note that this is just an overall assessment of weapon materials and styles found in the game. We'll need to take a closer look at every style later on, to come up with more original concepts which wouldn't rely too much on other TES games. I feel that it is very much possible.

On a positive note, looking at the weapons made me realize just how many similarities there are between them. So, it shouldn't be too hard to create them, I hope. We won't be going with high poly models anyway.

Although I understand that texture work will take a lot of time potentially + there are many-many variations of weapons in Daggerfall, more than in Oblivion or Skyrim.

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