[MOD] Climates & Calories

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KovuCougar
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Re: [MOD] Climates & Calories

Post by KovuCougar »

BoneofMalkav wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:18 am
Hellmasker10 wrote: Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:14 am There actually is a way to pull the hood up... and I learned that fairly recently myself even :lol:

click on "use" and on the cloak - they have multiple stances there for the most part :)
Or Right Click on it since DFU added that QoL feature. :D
I... just discovered this by accident.

Well, now I won't have to go hunting the shops again when "I need a cloak with the hood up!" I had so many duplicate cloaks some with hood up and some not, not even knowing I could just... "pull the hood up" on my existing cloak. :lol:

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Ralzar
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Re: [MOD] Climates & Calories

Post by Ralzar »

Haha, oh man that's painful.


Note that this is not just cloaks. All kinds of clothes can be worn in different ways. Like opening and closing shirts
or reversing "Reversible Tunic",
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Lokkrin Zhataros
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Re: [MOD] Climates & Calories

Post by Lokkrin Zhataros »

Hey Ralzar, I've been really enjoying this mod a lot in recent playthroughs and wouldn't go without it. I've always used survival mods in Morrowind and Skyrim. It adds extra necessary depth to gameplay by forcing you to plan ahead with extra layers of clothing and fresh food and water before heading out on your journey. I've died a few times already by not wearing enough in cold weather or not having a filled waterskin available in hot climates. You learn quickly to prepare. :D

I have a few suggestions that may be of interest. But I may also just be ignorant of how the mod works or what is actually possible to implement within DFU. These are just ideas and suggestions and may not reflect your vision for your mod, so no worries if you don't want to implement any of these.

Thirst: Curious if there were any thoughts on expanding the Thirst mechanic. It's fairly limited atm, being that it's only function is to help keep you cool in hot weather/climates. In RL water is essential regardless of where you are or what temperature it is. IMO water should be just as much an essential resource as food, if not more so. Sure, in hot climates/weather you'll need more water than other times, so you'll keep a few more waterskins handy and keep them filled best you can.

Water also could serve multiple purposes depending on water temperature. Normal water will be Cold and that would help keep you cool in Hot temperatures. But Hot water (water heated via campfire) could keep you warm in Cold temperatures. Hot water should maintain it's temperature most the day since we can assume you are keeping the waterskin well insulated under your cloak or in a pack.

Camping Gear: We can assume that the Tent Canvas and Bed Roll are rolled up together, but the Campfire should probably be a separate item somehow. It would add an extra resource item that has very limited uses, again forcing the player to pay attention and plan ahead. Also, since it would be a separate item to set up you could add specific campfire functions like warming yourself up, heating water or cooking food. Having the Tent/Bedroll set up along with the Campfire will keep you warm while keeping you safe and dry. Somehow the mod will have to detect whether either part or both is set up. If that makes any sense. :?

I know it's hard to make new items in DFU and I'm ignorant on how that all works. I wasn't sure if currently all you need is an existing graphic in order to create a new item, because there is one graphic that is just a stack of Wood, maybe could be used to represent the campfire item?
11-0.PNG
11-0.PNG (1.74 KiB) Viewed 467 times
Putrid Food Items: A suggestion, if at all possible, that if food deteriorates at or beyond 'Putrid' it will automatically disappear from inventory/container/loot-pile. Even putrid food doesn't have a use and wouldn't want to eat it at that point anyway.
----
Anyway, Thanks Ralzar for creating the Climates and Calories mod.
It's awesome! :)

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NikitaTheTanner
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Re: [MOD] Climates & Calories

Post by NikitaTheTanner »

I do like Lokkrin Zhataros ideas, though I haven't tried the mod yet, but they sound logical. Maybe apart from putrid food, as I think you should be able to eat rotten scraps, they should simply poison you/give disease in most cases, but maybe some characters might be more resistant to it (depending on race/possibly new advantages/disadvantages? if these can be added, of course). Some characters might be more sensitive to food than others.

Think I am going to give this mod a try in the nearest future, as it does sound tempting.

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Ralzar
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Re: [MOD] Climates & Calories

Post by Ralzar »

NikitaTheTanner wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 9:08 am Think I am going to give this mod a try in the nearest future, as it does sound tempting.
I'd absolutely reccommend it combined with Travel Options and Basic Roads. I have gotten the impression that other survival/needs mods for games (like Skyrim) tend to be very... hectic. Which keeps people from trying this because they assume it works the same way. But most other games are very compact. You can't have long term effects when it litterally takes 5 minutes to walk between cities. Daggerfall however, can keep you out in the wilderness for days.
This mod is made with the intention of doing a soft simulation of effects you have to account for when traveling in the wilderness. Which means: if the weather is not extreme and you don't do something stupid, you'll be fine.

That said, my current character is a Dark Elf (they hate cold) with the Lower Resistance To Frost class disadvantage. And boy howdy, he does not like winter and cold climates. While traveling to Shedungent in the fall, it became winter mid-journey and I had to stay at a tavern for a few days while waiting for a clear weather day before I dared finish my trip. Luckily I'd set up a recall anchor to get back to Daggerfall. I'm not sure how I would have survived the trek back through the mountains in winter. I might have had to stay at a city until Spring :D

A recent addition to this mod that helps a LOT compared to how people used to experience this mod, is that it now reduces (based on Luck) the spawn chance when resting in wilderness. If you use Camping Equipment to rest, it severely reduces the chance. So if you are traveling in the wilderness, night falls and you have to set up camp, you won't get spammed with monsters every couple of hours. You might rest there for 10+ hours without a single encoutner. At worst I think I've had two monsters find me during a long rest.
This can also be used in dungeons to avoid getting monster-spammed when resting. Just make sure to not wear out your camping equipment. (The Repair Tools mod is a good addition here. It lets you use needle and thread to patch up your equipment.)
Last edited by Ralzar on Tue Nov 10, 2020 9:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Ralzar
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Re: [MOD] Climates & Calories

Post by Ralzar »

As for drinking: I feel it could easily become a bit too tedious? The problem is that it is hard to make mechanics for all the ways you can get water. And you need to constantly drink it. I've avoided implementing a thirst function because I always try to avoid tedium and micro-managing with the mod.

For rotting food, I have been thinking several things:

I might switch to having animals drop "Raw Meat" that you have to somehow cook to get the full effect from. Allthough maybe argonians could get more out of raw meat? Hmmm... :D

At the moment, as food gets more "damaged" it fills you up less and less. Making the weight-vs-benefit worse and worse. I have been thinking about doing some kind of food poisoning thing, but the poisons and diseases in the game are just WAY too nasty for me to simply use them. So I'd have to biuld my own system. So I've been holding off. Again partly to avoid tedium and micro-managing.

In the future I will add that if you try to use a "Putrid" food you will get a popup saying it's too disgusintg and then the item disappears. I notice I'm getting tired of dropping putrid food here and there.

Edit:
Oh yeah, and as for having a seperate campfire item? Problem is, if you can gather wood, I'd have to start considering all the things you could use for fuel and how to gather them. Like chopping down trees by... attacking them? And then removing the tree when fully chopped down? With axes being by far the best and blunt weapons being useless?
Hm... not impossible, but a lot of work to get right. I'd laso have to consider stuff like chpping up furniture in dungeons for fuel. So yeah, not impossible but would take almost its own mod to get right.
My released mods

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NikitaTheTanner
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Re: [MOD] Climates & Calories

Post by NikitaTheTanner »

I see your reasons, and I kinda agree (that's the main reason I didn't feel like installing the mod at first), but I also feel like water is such an essential item that it can be okay to micromanage a little more. Maybe not boiling it, but at least having some at all times, and maybe the sipping can be automatic as in some Skyrim mods, as long as you have it on yourself. Of course, you should also be able to easily re-fill water canteens where there are sources of water - puddles, dungeon water, even snow, so it's not too tedious, and it shouldn't weight too much to over encumber you. Other food items and beverages can also have some water amounts, lowering your thirst on consumption.

Not sure how hard it would be to ensure that the sea water is not drinkable though.

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Ralzar
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Re: [MOD] Climates & Calories

Post by Ralzar »

Auto-drinking is already how the water skins work. It's just that you only drink from them if you exceed a certain temperature. At which point the drink applies a cooling effect for a while.
I could add a second smaller drinking effect which is just your continuous usage of water.

At the moment you can refill water skins by submerging in water (wading depth counts), talking to tavern keepers or barmaids, or by clicking wells, water spouts, fountains etc.

Sea water is currently drinkable because I just plain didn't think about it when coding the feature. I realized it recently when I accidentally rode into the ocean and refilled my water :D
That should be possible to differentiate though. Hopefully.
My released mods

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Lokkrin Zhataros
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Re: [MOD] Climates & Calories

Post by Lokkrin Zhataros »

Thanks Ralzar and NikataTheTanner for the informative replies. Yeah, I wasn't exactly sure what the complete vision for the mod was and I was initially kinda hesitant to post those suggestions. I have absolutely no problem with how Climates and Calories functions as it is, and should have specified that more in the post.

Like you said Ralzar, I suppose I confused this mod with "Survival" and "Realistic Needs" mods from later games. I'm still confused a little because of the food function in the mod. It's not at all a criticism of your mod, I'm just ignorant on it's full goal. - - With C&C it appears that Eating and Hunting for food has no effect on your character related to Climate or Weather but clothing does, this is pretty much exactly how Survival/Realistic Needs mods work in other games. Eating and hunting is a major part of the 'tedium' of those mods. If you didn't prepare ahead of time or run out of food and can't find a food source...you're kinda screwed. That's what I thought this mod was partly about. If this was simply a 'Dress Appropriately for Climate/Weather' type of mod then I suppose I wouldn't have been confused since food/water survival doesn't always belong with that function.

--The reason I suggested adding more of a realistic Thirst function is because it felt unbalanced and unnatural compared to how very tedious managing food is. You have to hunt/gather food and continously eat when traveling, and then barely have to do anything with water, or do nothing with water if you're in a cool or temperate climate. Again, IMO drinking water is even more of an essential need on a daily basis and can actually have an effect on you based on climate/weather than food.

Again, it's not a criticism, just I don't fully understand all the ins and outs of the mod.

--No worries about the Campfire item suggestion, I had a feeling it would take significant effort to implement something like that. It may not even be worth it.

Also, the food deterioration function makes sense now that you explained it. The more food deteriorates the less useful it it.

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Ralzar
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Re: [MOD] Climates & Calories

Post by Ralzar »

Lokkrin Zhataros wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 4:33 pm Also, the food deterioration function makes sense now that you explained it. The more food deteriorates the less useful it it.
Think of it like "Cutting off the green bits" :D


But yeah I don't think I had a conscious goal with this mod. Thinking about what it really is, it is a traveling mod. Because it was created as a response to Tedious Travel and how inconsequential that mod made climates feel. The whole mod conceptually started by me using Tedious Travel to cross a desert and going "This... is not right."
So I made "Climates & Cloaks" which was pretty much just climate/weather vs clothes mod.

C&C then caused you have to use taverns to rest etc, but I noticed that you had no way of using the taverns to regain fatigue, other than staying the night. Which led to the companion mod Filling Food which made buying tavern food&drink give a 2 hour slight fatigue regen. (You can eat every 3 hours in vanilla).

After a while, the two got developed with each other in mind and after a while it became obvious to merge them in order to make sure the code interacted correctly.
So I merged them into Climates & Calories which has been growing ever since simply based on suggestions and my own observations while playing.
My released mods

"I feel like Ralzar specifically wrote those mods for me and then said "Use them". Just so he could watch me die more."
-FuzzyBeanPlays

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