[MOD] Meaner Monsters

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Ralzar
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Re: [MOD] Meaner Monsters

Post by Ralzar »

L57 wrote: Wed Feb 26, 2020 11:06 am
squerol wrote: Wed Feb 26, 2020 10:58 am
(standing/rotating in place)
That's interesting, I don't remember this happening that often. In my experience, enemies are tend to reduce the distance, but humans can be stuck trying to switch from melee to bow and vice versa, which I make advantage of.

I use extensively running-back-and-forward tactic, but enemies sometimes strike just at the moment when I run up to hit. The latter definitely depends on player experience though, you have to get used to these attack timings.
Hm... Maybe he's missing some Advanced option? Like activating advanced AI? And choosing the highest reflex setting when starting the character?
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Ralzar
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Re: [MOD] Meaner Monsters

Post by Ralzar »

Magicono43 wrote: Wed Feb 26, 2020 3:47 pm
Man, that's really strange. Well if the case is that it was never working in live, i'm glad I brought it to your attention at least. Thanks for looking into it yourself and confirming that it was not all on my side. If you release the reverted version, i'll be sure to bug-test that myself as well.
Well, I reverted to the old way of coding this mod, which still worked. So new version is uploaded now.

I rolled back the buffs I did in the last update as they might have been unnecessary.
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Magicono43
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Re: [MOD] Meaner Monsters

Post by Magicono43 »

Ralzar wrote: Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:56 pm
Well, I reverted to the old way of coding this mod, which still worked. So new version is uploaded now.

I rolled back the buffs I did in the last update as they might have been unnecessary.
Awesome, i'll try it out in a bit and see how it works out, thanks.

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Magicono43
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Re: [MOD] Meaner Monsters

Post by Magicono43 »

I just tested out your reverted version and it is definitely working for both the Unity client as well as the 10.20 DFU build. So what made you like your updated code more? Your reverted code stills seems pretty easy to read and understand what values are changing and for what. Was your newer script more modular or something for future additions?

Either way, thanks for the functional version, i'll probably change a few values myself and see if you would think those numbers would work better with other immersion/difficulty mods and such.

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Ralzar
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Re: [MOD] Meaner Monsters

Post by Ralzar »

Yeah, the difference was mostly that it was slightly easier to use. Less writing per mob.

Glad to hear it's working for someone other than me :D

I did some tests with a starting character and the bear was a bit hard, the tiger murdured me, the orc was still underwhelming and the werewolf just tor me a part in a second.

Loaded up my lvl19 all-combat knight character and tested the big baddies. Lich and Ancient Lich were hard. Daedra Lord kicked my ass. But then I was just standing there bashing them and not trying to avoid or use potions.
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L57
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Re: [MOD] Meaner Monsters

Post by L57 »

Ralzar wrote: Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:14 pm
L57 wrote: Wed Feb 26, 2020 11:06 am
squerol wrote: Wed Feb 26, 2020 10:58 am
(standing/rotating in place)
That's interesting, I don't remember this happening that often. In my experience, enemies are tend to reduce the distance, but humans can be stuck trying to switch from melee to bow and vice versa, which I make advantage of.

I use extensively running-back-and-forward tactic, but enemies sometimes strike just at the moment when I run up to hit. The latter definitely depends on player experience though, you have to get used to these attack timings.
Hm... Maybe he's missing some Advanced option? Like activating advanced AI? And choosing the highest reflex setting when starting the character?
Perhaps he uses 'click to attack' option which changes the pace of the game completely. I have never chosen this option though, so it's just my hypothesis.

My idea is that if you can sprint-run and attack without holding camera view, it may be possible to fool around enemy NPC through all this tracking trickery. Just run around the corner and hit, then run back, repeat. AI will fail to realize what's going on and will stand confusingly in one place.

With vanilla mechanics enemies certainly change their behavior if they lose your track around the bend. Probably if you come out and hide again very often, AI fails to react correctly at all. Vanilla mechanics with fixed camera during attacks obviously prevents such player behavior (though in Classic DF you still could run sideways with locked camera, but it's much harder to execute than running and attacking with free camera, of course).

If this is true, it should be addressed somehow, because it's clearly game-breaking exploit.

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Ralzar
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Re: [MOD] Meaner Monsters

Post by Ralzar »

L57 wrote: Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:28 pm Perhaps he uses 'click to attack' option which changes the pace of the game completely. I have never chosen this option though, so it's just my hypothesis.
Well, I use click-to-attack and have a macro on my right mouse button that just spams r-click when I keep it pressed. So it doesn't make that much of a difference unless you really go in for dancing around a lot. Personally I've always felt that was a lot of effort for little benefit. So I usually just find a good position to go toe-to-toe with enemies and then bash it out.
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Hazelnut
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Re: [MOD] Meaner Monsters

Post by Hazelnut »

Using click to attack makes the combat twice as easy. I recently tried it for the first time when I was struggling with a character I was using to playtest and it became so much easier... so if you want a challenge, don't use click to attack. :)
See my mod code for examples of how to change various aspects of DFU: https://github.com/ajrb/dfunity-mods

squerol
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Re: [MOD] Meaner Monsters

Post by squerol »

One of my ideas to make monsters actually challenging was to dramatically reduce player walking/running back speed so outrunning enemies would be impossible.

I've simulated that and even implemented simple dashing system with external software (cheat engine and autohotkey) but sadly after doing that I've found another dagerfall design problem - slower enemies like skeletal warriors have decent startup animation before hit collision actually happens - which is fair design. But every melee human or humanoid daedra (like daedroth or daedra lord) have no windup. Those enemies hit player immediately - visuals doesn't match colisions because player is getting hit even before enemy begin to swing his weapon :roll:
Same situation with enemies casting spells - spell effects happens before animation start playing :roll:
So impossible to react vs those enemies with back or side dash.
You can see it on my video.



I've didn't paid attention to collisions before because enemies weren't able to reach player.
If I knew it before I wouldn't even bother with testing how reduced backwalk speed + dashing system will perform in this game :roll:

If enemy attacks collisions would be fixed then it would work.

I hope someone will be able to redesign this game combat system so it will became fun and challenging. It is so messed up right now - in vanilla enemies can't reach player. But if they reach You, terribly designed animations enter the action with instant spell casts and instant hit collisions :roll:

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Ralzar
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Re: [MOD] Meaner Monsters

Post by Ralzar »

Something that could help, would be that you were unable to move while attacking.
Problem is that the gameplay feel might suffer for it, but then the player character would fight with the same limitation as the mobs.
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"I feel like Ralzar specifically wrote those mods for me and then said "Use them". Just so he could watch me die more."
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