Re Twitter

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Jay_H
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Re: Re Twitter

Postby Jay_H » Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:52 am

Interkarma wrote:What I want is for magic to be at least partially scriptable. Not to the extent of quest system, but enough that users can easily create new basic spells by combining multiple atomic effects.

Say no more. If the spell system took two years I would consider it worth the wait :D
Come give your feedback on the ideas in my general thread, and share your DFU characters in the character thread.
Quest-writing tutorial here. Guide for new Daggerfall players here. Daggerfall Mechanics thread here.
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LorrMaster42
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Re: Re Twitter

Postby LorrMaster42 » Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:34 pm

I've spent quite a bit of time working with magic in the Creation kit, and one interesting thing I saw that wasn't really used in Daggerfall was a condition list for effects, enchantments, and spells. Basically you could tell a spell that it could only work if the conditions in its list were true, such as checking what the weather is, checking what kind of creature you're hitting, or checking the target once a second to see if they are sprinting. Using this system, I was able to create a shield that plays an effect only when you are blocking and sprinting at the same time (doing a shield charge).

Daggerfall had spells that could only target undead or humanoids, but there was no way to do this for other spells. Maybe there could be a system to support this for spellcrafting?
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Interkarma
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Re: Re Twitter

Postby Interkarma » Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:27 pm

Thank you for the input, it is valuable. :)

I'm prototyping a few different ideas to see what really works for me and fits well into the project overall. I'm at least partly basing some concepts off the quest system, which means that conditional effect triggers will be part of the bag. And just like the quest system, effect actions and conditions are backed by C# scripts with full code access. It won't be on the scale of Creation kit (hobby project vs. commercial full-time tools development), but with a good bit of structure it will be possible to do more than classic Daggerfall can at the very minimum.

I usually end up discarding my first few attempts before settling on something, so expect to see a bit of flux at the start until things settle in.
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Jay_H
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Re: Re Twitter

Postby Jay_H » Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:36 am

Since I doubt it'll be in core (though I won't speak for Interkarma concerning degrees), I hope that in the future there'll be an extensively modded magic system, with some features like the following:

1. Reductions based on percent chance for all spell types. If a player wants to make a powerful spell (Invisibility True, nuking damage, etc), they can make it and then reduce its spellpoint cost by giving it a percentage chance to succeed.

2. Reductions based on drawback effects. A spell could be made intentionally damaging to the user or have some other negative side effect, similar to how item enchanting works. So a full category of (range:self) spell effects could be made, which could reduce spell point costs when applied. Or imagine a spell that creates a very loud noise when cast. Or a spell that silences you after you cast it, to reduce casting cost by 50%.

3. Synergy-based spell effects that can reduce casting costs. A fire damage spell and a fire shield spell could have a reduced casting cost of 25%.
Come give your feedback on the ideas in my general thread, and share your DFU characters in the character thread.
Quest-writing tutorial here. Guide for new Daggerfall players here. Daggerfall Mechanics thread here.
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NikitaTheTanner
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Re: Re Twitter

Postby NikitaTheTanner » Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:13 pm

Don't know about these, I suppose they wouldn't be too bad as options for some players, but I certainly wouldn't want them to be integrated into the core.

It might be just a matter of preference, but in games like Daggerfall where you can reload at any time, chance based actions usually just lead to save scumming. The only exception I've seen is players who are very heavily role-playing the character, but even then, it more often leads to frustration and occasionaly truly fun moments, but these are rare. Chances work better in games like Darkest Dungeon or XCOM where you are forced to live with results of your actions and can't just reload a quicksave. With something as powerful as spells, this will only be more severe, where you load the same save dozen of times before finally succeeding with the dice roll and hopefully overcoming the challege, otherwise you have to go back to loading.

Imagine yourself trapped in a room with Ancient Lich and having powerfull fireball spell that would probably kill it, but only has 12% chance of success and no other saves from recent past. Even if you don't like save scumming, you'll most likely do it in any case, just not to lose your progress.

Similar problem appears with drawback effects where we can see min-maxing often taken to the extreme as seen with advantages/disadvantages system of Daggerfall. Players will often pick powerful advantages and a ton of minor disadvantages which while affect the game to large extent often feel more restricted than liberating. These are really hard to balance and same plagues are likely to haunt magic drawbacks. On one hand, it can be really fun, but on the other hand, it's hard to resist temptation... :twisted:

While these features would give players more control over their experience and more fun ways to break the game, I feel that magic system that will try to be both fun and balanced would be greatly appreciated. It's an extremely challenging task, especially if the system is to be flexible and include custom made spells, but it would provide more engaging and compelling experience overall. But that's just my opinion and I certainly wouldn't mind extra options.
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Jay_H
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Re: Re Twitter

Postby Jay_H » Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:30 pm

I think those are very good points :)
Come give your feedback on the ideas in my general thread, and share your DFU characters in the character thread.
Quest-writing tutorial here. Guide for new Daggerfall players here. Daggerfall Mechanics thread here.
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Jay_H
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Re: Re Twitter

Postby Jay_H » Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:51 pm

Jay_H wrote:
Interkarma wrote:It's actually taken me about a week to realise the worst of it is really over, and I realised I've been fighting self doubt the whole way.

Geez, now I feel like we've been pushing you to PTSD or something through the end of the quest system :lol: :(

Something quite relevant from the interview with Julian LeFay: by the time he was done with Daggerfall he was sick of it, and has rarely even looked at it since. Something he added near the end of the interview, talking about making Daggerfall-likes:
"It's awful in every way, but if you actually manage to achieve it and get something done, when you come out at the other end and recover, it'll be worth it. Up to that point, it'll be just nightmares, but it will definitely be worth it."

Perhaps the "Daggerfall curse" has now reached to Julian, Lucius, and Gavin :?
Come give your feedback on the ideas in my general thread, and share your DFU characters in the character thread.
Quest-writing tutorial here. Guide for new Daggerfall players here. Daggerfall Mechanics thread here.
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Interkarma
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Re: Re Twitter

Postby Interkarma » Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:47 pm

I don't feel cursed. I'm having a wonderful time with all of this. :)

But making a game on this scale as a hobby is always going to bring a lot of self-doubt. We don't really know what we're capable of until we try to do it, and sometimes we find our limits much sooner than expected.

The early parts of the quest system were indeed a bleak patch for me. It was make or break time for the project, and I didn't really know where my limits were. It all worked out OK though, and I found my personal limits were a bit further along than feared. This is probably true for everyone when we work hard to overcome something difficult - whatever that may be.
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Jay_H
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Re: Re Twitter

Postby Jay_H » Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:02 pm

Yeah, I exaggerated in saying that. And the hardest stuff is now in the past :)
Come give your feedback on the ideas in my general thread, and share your DFU characters in the character thread.
Quest-writing tutorial here. Guide for new Daggerfall players here. Daggerfall Mechanics thread here.

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