[0.11.2] Leveling Up At A Tavern - Bug

Post here if you need help getting started with Daggerfall Unity or just want to clarify a potential bug. Questions about playing or modding classic Daggerfall should be posted to Community.
User avatar
Teralitha
Posts: 348
Joined: Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:44 pm

[0.11.2] Leveling Up At A Tavern - Bug

Post by Teralitha »

So when I rest at a tavern and I level up from using skills(like practicing spells) and I am save/reloading in order to get the best result (Max health and bonus points 6) The reload is not refreshing the random seed for the level up and the same result is coming up every time. In order to get a random seed roll for each reload, I have to leave the town.

It might be nice if we could get an option in the launcher to always get max for every level up so we can skip the save/reload thing. Possible?

User avatar
Interkarma
Posts: 6231
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:51 am

Re: [0.11.2] Leveling Up At A Tavern - Bug

Post by Interkarma »

I don't agree this is a bug, and I'm not going to code in extra support for save scumming on purpose. :) Looking at the code, it doesn't set any specific seed and just uses the next random seed in sequence. You could possibly perform some other action to progress seed before levelling up.

I think there are mods that set max health on levelup. Otherwise you might be able to suggest that on the modding forums.

User avatar
Teralitha
Posts: 348
Joined: Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:44 pm

Re: [0.11.2] Leveling Up At A Tavern - Bug

Post by Teralitha »

Well you shouldnt have to code it in, this was exactly how it was in classic. In fact, I remember doing this in earlier versions of DFU. So something broke since then. Like i said, it only happens when trying to do it in a tavern. Maybe its a mod Im using. Im using only the DREAM mod, but as far as I know that only changes graphics and sounds.

Even the UESP recommends save scumming on level ups. :P

User avatar
Interkarma
Posts: 6231
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:51 am

Re: [0.11.2] Leveling Up At A Tavern - Bug

Post by Interkarma »

Teralitha wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:26 am Well you shouldnt have to code it in, this was exactly how it was in classic.
I covered this in a previous reply:
Interkarma wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 11:11 pm These two games are totally different implementations with different codebases on different engines. Daggerfall Unity is not a source port, it's an entirely new code base created from the ground up, which means sometimes things behave differently and have unique requirements under the hood.
Daggerfall Unity is not a source port. Everything - literally everything - has been coded from the ground up. I'm not going to intentionally introduce a save scumming bug because classic happened to have this issue in its implementation.

Many old exploits don't work in DFU. Sometimes we've fixed a bug intentionally, or we just never had that bug in the first place. Sometimes we have bugs of our own, which is what I'm looking for where processing these topics. But what you're asking here is for me to intentionally re-introduce a bug that currently doesn't exist. Of course that will require code changes.

Please keep in mind that DFU is something I create in my spare time. I get to choose how that time is spent, and I will not use it to recreate classic bugs on purpose. Cheers! :)

User avatar
Teralitha
Posts: 348
Joined: Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:44 pm

Re: [0.11.2] Leveling Up At A Tavern - Bug

Post by Teralitha »

What? No this was not a bug in classic. Its new. I would not have brought it up otherwise. The fact that I discovered the problem through save scumming is irrelevant. I dont think you listened to what I said, or I didnt describe the issue clearly enough. This bug was not present in earlier versions of DFU nor classic. If you dont want to look into it, fine. It could be caused by the DREAM mod too. No clue. I already have a workaround for this bug as I described, so I will do that instead. The "exploit" as you put it does still work, just not in taverns (anymore.) Im just reporting issues as I find them. Pls keep in mind that Im volunteering my time as well to beta testing this project, because I believe in you. 8-)

User avatar
Interkarma
Posts: 6231
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:51 am

Re: [0.11.2] Leveling Up At A Tavern - Bug

Post by Interkarma »

Teralitha wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:27 am The fact that I discovered the problem through save scumming is irrelevant. I dont think you listened to what I said, or I didnt describe the issue clearly enough.
You might need to explain the problem differently to me then if save scumming isn't involved. What exactly is the issue?

For the record, I don't mind if people want to save scum or exploit the game. It's a single player game and people can play it however they want. I even chose a plaintext save format because it's easier to hack around with save data. But undefined outcomes between save/load and game systems isn't considered a normal part of gameplay and will remain unsupported. To clarify - if it really breaks something (and sometimes it does) then I'll be the first one to fix it. But if it's just "my cheat doesn't work the same", that's not something I'll get involved with. :)

User avatar
Ralzar
Posts: 1778
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:11 pm
Location: Norway

Re: [0.11.2] Leveling Up At A Tavern - Bug

Post by Ralzar »

Got to agree with IK here, that savescumming was never part of the intended design of the game. It just happened to work.

If you want max HP and Attribute Points each level it would be a lot easier to use my LevelUp Adjuster mod to just set them to max instead of savescumming.
My released mods

"I feel like Ralzar specifically wrote those mods for me and then said "Use them". Just so he could watch me die more."
-FuzzyBeanPlays

User avatar
Teralitha
Posts: 348
Joined: Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:44 pm

Re: [0.11.2] Leveling Up At A Tavern - Bug

Post by Teralitha »

Interkarma wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:51 am
Teralitha wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:27 am The fact that I discovered the problem through save scumming is irrelevant. I dont think you listened to what I said, or I didnt describe the issue clearly enough.
You might need to explain the problem differently to me then if save scumming isn't involved. What exactly is the issue?

For the record, I don't mind if people want to save scum or exploit the game. It's a single player game and people can play it however they want. I even chose a plaintext save format because it's easier to hack around with save data. But undefined outcomes between save/load and game systems isn't considered a normal part of gameplay and will remain unsupported. To clarify - if it really breaks something (and sometimes it does) then I'll be the first one to fix it. But if it's just "my cheat doesn't work the same", that's not something I'll get involved with. :)
If i disable mods in the launcher, can the mod files still cause an issue in game? I think its possible the mods are causing this issue. Ill try doing a clean reinstall to find out.

User avatar
Teralitha
Posts: 348
Joined: Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:44 pm

Re: [0.11.2] Leveling Up At A Tavern - Bug

Post by Teralitha »

Here, I made a video of the issue since it may be difficult to understand from text - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJBDDpZ9DAM

User avatar
Interkarma
Posts: 6231
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:51 am

Re: [0.11.2] Leveling Up At A Tavern - Bug

Post by Interkarma »

I have watched your video and I understand what you're saying. I still don't agree this a bug. :)

This doesn't work in classic because someone designed it that way. It's not intended gameplay. Rather, you're using save/load to find unintended gaps in the game code and provoke a favourable outcome. That's why it's called an exploit. Every game has different gaps based on their unique code and DFU has different gaps to classic.

If you really want max health each levelup then use Ralzar's mod or edit the save game in notepad. You can also use "reroll_maxhealth" from console to keep rerolling max health until you're happy with result.

With that said, I really don't see any harm in overcoming this and moving on. So for this very specific case, I've made a change that will allow you to savescum for different health rolls by forcibly reseeding the formula on every call with a new value rather than next seed in sequence. Next seed in sequence is fine for normal gameplay but undefined when savescumming. I also use a different random method with better distribution. Please note that if anyone overrides this formula in a mod then outcome will be different.

https://github.com/Interkarma/daggerfal ... dd3e41b8b7

Moving forwards, I'll let the wider community handle some more questions first, and I'll jump in if it looks like my help is needed. I just have far too much on my plate right now and need to place my priorities elsewhere for a while.

Post Reply