Does Daggerfall make other open worlds seem fake?

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jayhova
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Re: Does Daggerfall make other open worlds seem fake?

Post by jayhova »

Werewolf wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:23 am Morrowind was still a great game. Keep in mind it was Bethesda’s last chance to be saved from bankruptcy so it makes sense that it would be more conventional. Morrowind could’ve been a stepping stone to Elder Scrolls rising back up. Bethesda could’ve used Morrowind as a soft reboot that would be the first step in making the successor to Daggerfall. They could’ve made the future games perhaps be more beginner friendly with more forgiving early areas and the return of fast travel whilst expanding upon the ROG elements more in line with Daggerfall. But then of course we ended up with Skyrim not even freaking having classes. Morrowind has an excuse for being dumbed down as it still has a lot going for it and would’ve been a great soft reboot towards the more simple “chosen one” nature of Arena that would then build back to Daggerfall with future entries. But that didn’t happen. Oblivion clearly was designed for console gamers who don’t play RPGs but it still did at least try to be an RPG, it clearly struggled to resist the demands of executives who interpreted the genuine criticism of games like Morrowind being hard for new players as the ways of the RPG genre itself, not the starting area being hard. But Skyrim had zero excuse, that game was gleefully dumbed down to the point where it insulted the player.

What killed the Western RPG? The idea-amongst corporate executives-that the reason why many found Western RPGs too hard to play is because of the deep mechanics of RPGs, not the tendency of Morrowind’s world to be dangerous and thus brutal for early players.

Had Western RPG designers been able to convince the suits that they could just make the starting areas easy for low level characters to make them accessible then we very well could’ve had Elder Scrolls post-Morrowind get more complex over time like how Daggerfall was more complex then Arena, instead of the series getting dumbed down. They failed
It's important to bear in mind how the industry changed, what changed it, and why. People like Robert Altman were not gamers, they were business people looking to create a profitable business. Altman ousted the original owner of Bethsoft presumably to have better control. Julian Lefay, Vijay Lakshman, and others were out of the company by the time the company was reshaped into the company that created Morrowind. To a great extent Daggerfall and Morrowind were created by two different companies with very different goals.
Remember always 'What would Julian Do?'.

Lywzc
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Re: Does Daggerfall make other open worlds seem fake?

Post by Lywzc »

Who are insulted? Not me at least. I enjoy the differences between Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim and look forward to TES6 as much as those who contributes to the 15.5 million view counts of the TES6 trailer. Are they so stupid that they support some game that will certainly insult them? Calling Skyrim an insult to the "player" is insulting those who enjoy it.

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Jay_H
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Re: Does Daggerfall make other open worlds seem fake?

Post by Jay_H »

A reminder to keep this discussion civil ;) Talking about things is fine, but when it gets personal, someone will step in.

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Werewolf
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Re: Does Daggerfall make other open worlds seem fake?

Post by Werewolf »

jayhova wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 8:04 am
Werewolf wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:23 am Morrowind was still a great game. Keep in mind it was Bethesda’s last chance to be saved from bankruptcy so it makes sense that it would be more conventional. Morrowind could’ve been a stepping stone to Elder Scrolls rising back up. Bethesda could’ve used Morrowind as a soft reboot that would be the first step in making the successor to Daggerfall. They could’ve made the future games perhaps be more beginner friendly with more forgiving early areas and the return of fast travel whilst expanding upon the ROG elements more in line with Daggerfall. But then of course we ended up with Skyrim not even freaking having classes. Morrowind has an excuse for being dumbed down as it still has a lot going for it and would’ve been a great soft reboot towards the more simple “chosen one” nature of Arena that would then build back to Daggerfall with future entries. But that didn’t happen. Oblivion clearly was designed for console gamers who don’t play RPGs but it still did at least try to be an RPG, it clearly struggled to resist the demands of executives who interpreted the genuine criticism of games like Morrowind being hard for new players as the ways of the RPG genre itself, not the starting area being hard. But Skyrim had zero excuse, that game was gleefully dumbed down to the point where it insulted the player.

What killed the Western RPG? The idea-amongst corporate executives-that the reason why many found Western RPGs too hard to play is because of the deep mechanics of RPGs, not the tendency of Morrowind’s world to be dangerous and thus brutal for early players.

Had Western RPG designers been able to convince the suits that they could just make the starting areas easy for low level characters to make them accessible then we very well could’ve had Elder Scrolls post-Morrowind get more complex over time like how Daggerfall was more complex then Arena, instead of the series getting dumbed down. They failed
It's important to bear in mind how the industry changed, what changed it, and why. People like Robert Altman were not gamers, they were business people looking to create a profitable business. Altman ousted the original owner of Bethsoft presumably to have better control. Julian Lefay, Vijay Lakshman, and others were out of the company by the time the company was reshaped into the company that created Morrowind. To a great extent Daggerfall and Morrowind were created by two different companies with very different goals.
Yeah but now Julian is stuck with his vaporware that isn’t even actually in development

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jayhova
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Re: Does Daggerfall make other open worlds seem fake?

Post by jayhova »

Werewolf wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:51 am
Yeah but now Julian is stuck with his vaporware that isn’t even actually in development
And what vaporware is that?
Remember always 'What would Julian Do?'.

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Werewolf
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Re: Does Daggerfall make other open worlds seem fake?

Post by Werewolf »

jayhova wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 5:12 pm
Werewolf wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:51 am
Yeah but now Julian is stuck with his vaporware that isn’t even actually in development
And what vaporware is that?
Wayward Realms. There’s an article from someone formerly on the team that details what a mess it is: https://medium.com/@indigogaming/how-i- ... 8b327e50f3

The interviews that Julian gives sound amazing and the logical progression of Daggerfall but that article shows how the game wasn’t even in development. Seeing how they STILL only show concept art it’s pretty much just vaporware. Wayward Realms doesn’t come off as a scam in any way (no kickstarter or other crap) but I don’t have high hopes for it. I want it to succeed but I wouldn’t be surprised if it never even comes out

Falci
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Re: Does Daggerfall make other open worlds seem fake?

Post by Falci »

I played through every main TES game, except Arena, which I gave up along the way, close to the end. There are aspects I like in all of them, but I don't think any of them is perfect. That said, Morrowind is the only one I played through multiple times (3 to be exact).

My ideal open world RPG would probably mash various aspects of each TES game (and some from Fallout 3 and 4) into something worth 100+ hours of gaming without notice.

In fact, I'd probably use aspects from a lot of other games as well, I remember AC Odyssey, in particular, giving me an incredible TES exploration vibe.

Overall, I'd be happy with a game world 2 to 3 times the size of Morrowind, but just as densely packed. An island or archipelago, no "You can't go there" areas. Most streamlining Bethesda added through the years is ok to me, but the ones that overcorrect abusable systems are my least favorite. I'd like to have character stats back and be able to raise them to ridiculous numbers, so that I could, say, run through the whole game world in seconds (not that it should be something you'd achieve without intentionaly trying).

I'd love to have flying, super jumps, climbing, creating my own spells, ridiculously powerfull alchemy and enchanting, forging armors and weapons. In fact, I'd love to have technical options for situations. Locked door? Lockpick, magic or brute force your way through it. Also, I'd like to be able to build my own home/castle, but would rather not have something like the settlements in Fallout 4.

I'd love to have the forging system allow me to build a variety of different designs of armors with different materials, so that I could make a chest piece with a certain design with steel, or glass, or ebony and have a similar look but with different colors/details and, obviously, stats. I also keep thinking that "Daedric" and "Aedric" could be mutations applied to the armors through specific rituals, with "more appropriate" materials yielding better results.

I'd be ok with text only conversations for a better plot, but I don't need massive completely change the world type quests. I mean, Morrowind deals with this in a very agreable way, but I hated how it was done in Fallout 4, for example. I hate how Skyrim and Fallout 4 are constantly forcing new quests, minor or major, into you, and I rather not have that.

I always enjoyed TES 3, 4 and 5 approaches to faction memberships, with self contained Campaigns that, while sometimes they interfered with one another, you could plan yourself and navigate through it. Maybe have a couple of factions at war and allow me to join one and destroy the other, or join both and forge peace, or simply annihilate both.

Optionally, I'd love to have, as an endgame goal, post main campaign, to be able to ascend into godhood or become an actual brand new Daedric Prince (and not just hold the title of Sheogorath).

Finally, it could have graphics just like Valheim. XD I mean, I wouldn't mind an UE5 hyper realistic looking world, but that sweet Valheim style sorta faux retro look would work wonders as well.

P.S.: Sorry, I allowed myself to get absorbed into my own imagination. As for the topic at hand, I don't think Daggerfall's world size affected my impression of other games that much, as others mentioned, it's incredibly wide, but too shallow. Add that most of its upfront world simulation aged poorly, and, amazing as it may be as a game on its own, it doesn't particularly diminishes my impression of other games.

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Werewolf
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Re: Does Daggerfall make other open worlds seem fake?

Post by Werewolf »

Falci wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 2:22 am I played through every main TES game, except Arena, which I gave up along the way, close to the end. There are aspects I like in all of them, but I don't think any of them is perfect. That said, Morrowind is the only one I played through multiple times (3 to be exact).

My ideal open world RPG would probably mash various aspects of each TES game (and some from Fallout 3 and 4) into something worth 100+ hours of gaming without notice.

In fact, I'd probably use aspects from a lot of other games as well, I remember AC Odyssey, in particular, giving me an incredible TES exploration vibe.

Overall, I'd be happy with a game world 2 to 3 times the size of Morrowind, but just as densely packed. An island or archipelago, no "You can't go there" areas. Most streamlining Bethesda added through the years is ok to me, but the ones that overcorrect abusable systems are my least favorite. I'd like to have character stats back and be able to raise them to ridiculous numbers, so that I could, say, run through the whole game world in seconds (not that it should be something you'd achieve without intentionaly trying).

I'd love to have flying, super jumps, climbing, creating my own spells, ridiculously powerfull alchemy and enchanting, forging armors and weapons. In fact, I'd love to have technical options for situations. Locked door? Lockpick, magic or brute force your way through it. Also, I'd like to be able to build my own home/castle, but would rather not have something like the settlements in Fallout 4.

I'd love to have the forging system allow me to build a variety of different designs of armors with different materials, so that I could make a chest piece with a certain design with steel, or glass, or ebony and have a similar look but with different colors/details and, obviously, stats. I also keep thinking that "Daedric" and "Aedric" could be mutations applied to the armors through specific rituals, with "more appropriate" materials yielding better results.

I'd be ok with text only conversations for a better plot, but I don't need massive completely change the world type quests. I mean, Morrowind deals with this in a very agreable way, but I hated how it was done in Fallout 4, for example. I hate how Skyrim and Fallout 4 are constantly forcing new quests, minor or major, into you, and I rather not have that.

I always enjoyed TES 3, 4 and 5 approaches to faction memberships, with self contained Campaigns that, while sometimes they interfered with one another, you could plan yourself and navigate through it. Maybe have a couple of factions at war and allow me to join one and destroy the other, or join both and forge peace, or simply annihilate both.

Optionally, I'd love to have, as an endgame goal, post main campaign, to be able to ascend into godhood or become an actual brand new Daedric Prince (and not just hold the title of Sheogorath).

Finally, it could have graphics just like Valheim. XD I mean, I wouldn't mind an UE5 hyper realistic looking world, but that sweet Valheim style sorta faux retro look would work wonders as well.

P.S.: Sorry, I allowed myself to get absorbed into my own imagination. As for the topic at hand, I don't think Daggerfall's world size affected my impression of other games that much, as others mentioned, it's incredibly wide, but too shallow. Add that most of its upfront world simulation aged poorly, and, amazing as it may be as a game on its own, it doesn't particularly diminishes my impression of other games.
An open world doesn’t have to be realistically sized like Daggerfall but I found Morrowind to be WAY too condensed, it could’ve been twice as large and would benefit greatly from that because it’s super condensed. Daggerfall’s countryside is bland, yeah, but the terrain mods make it more interesting. I wouldn’t be surprised if in a few years we’ll have a mod that makes the countryside a lot more interesting to traverse. Heck, vanilla Daggerfall Unity already makes the countryside more impactful because the draw distance shows you how large the world is, and the mods we already have make it fun to go explore outside of towns. I’d love if someone would make a mod where enemies spawn in the countryside if you explore, like you’re exploring and the game generates a bandit camp with bandits and loot.

Another idea I have to make the countryside better are caves. You know those mods that add hills? Maybe someone could make a mod where they contain entrances to dungeons. I think as there is no dungeon generator yet caves could just be graveyard dungeons but ideally caves would be, well, caves that are bigger then graveyard dungeons (which were way too small) but smaller then dungeons. My idea to spice things up the caves don’t scale to your level and instead each cave has it’s own difficulty level. Any cave can have easy enemies and basic loot or hard enemies and top loot. Seeing how in the mods the large hills are often outside of towns it’d give players a reason to go into the countryside while also not interfering with Daggerfall’s realistic scale.

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Re: Does Daggerfall make other open worlds seem fake?

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Werewolf wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 5:35 pm An open world doesn’t have to be realistically sized like Daggerfall
Honestly, an open world game with the size of just the Daggerfall Region would still be crazy big. What I really want though, is realistic distance between locations. I do not need 1000 towns wiht realistic distances between them. 10, or even 3 towns would be more than enough. The importance is really more about giving me some breathing room between content.

When I recently tried Horizon Zero Dawn it was literally impossible to avoid constantly walking into range of a quest giver, enemies, "hidden" caves or settlements while the game is trying to paint it like you are on a grand journey. I would have enjoyed the game a lot more if I actually had to search or be pretty lucky to run into any of these things.

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jayhova
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Re: Does Daggerfall make other open worlds seem fake?

Post by jayhova »

jayhova wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 5:12 pm
Werewolf wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:51 am
And what vaporware is that?
Wayward Realms. There’s an article from someone formerly on the team that details what a mess it is: https://medium.com/@indigogaming/how-i- ... 8b327e50f3

The interviews that Julian gives sound amazing and the logical progression of Daggerfall but that article shows how the game wasn’t even in development. Seeing how they STILL only show concept art it’s pretty much just vaporware. Wayward Realms doesn’t come off as a scam in any way (no kickstarter or other crap) but I don’t have high hopes for it. I want it to succeed but I wouldn’t be surprised if it never even comes out
To be clear the person who left the team was not a developer and was not familiar with how development works. Wayward realms is NOT vaporware. It is currently in development. Development for a new project from a non-studio group is at best problematic. Take DFU for example. DFU is not vaporware and never has been. However, it took a very long time (a decade) to go from a one-man pet project to a team-built, playable, complete game. Because of the open nature of the project, you got to see all that. Vaporware refers to items that will never be completed. Several projects thought to be vaporware turned out not to be. Xanadu Is a famous example of delivered vaporware. Before slinging around terms like vaporware one should remember how long Daggerfall's original sequel took to make and how long the highly successful Bethesda studios is taking to make the sequel to Skyrim.
Remember always 'What would Julian Do?'.

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