UI/controls - enhancements

Talk about the mods or features you'd like to see in Daggerfall Unity. Give mod creators some ideas!
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mikeprichard
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Re: UI/controls - enhancements

Post by mikeprichard » Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:21 pm

Hi l3lessed - not as far as I know, though Hazelnut mentioned he personally wouldn't want this change in "core" DFU. It would be pretty amazing, though - see the original discussion at viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1614&start=10#p18420.

l3lessed
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Re: UI/controls - enhancements

Post by l3lessed » Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:26 pm

Well, if I get the inventory script file recoded so many of the UI control aspects are public retrievable and manipulatable properties, it could easily be created as a stand alone mod, so core DFU is not touched.

Hazel asked me to start recoding the inventory script file and submitting the changes to the repo when I discussed how this needed to be done to allow something like my outfit manager within the original DFU UI system. I'll probably start that work once I get version 1.0 outfit manager out that uses the Unity onGui class, as it will need to be done anyways, if I want my outfit manager to mesh into classic DFU UI seamlessly.

By the way, all this could be done easily through the unity onGui class, and the numerous quick UI components it allows. However, it would have to overlay the original UI, and it wouldn't be able to easily stack above or below the default DFU UI because DFU uses it's own stack layer system to decide what UI is shown on the top.
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BansheeXYZ
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Re: UI/controls - enhancements

Post by BansheeXYZ » Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:32 pm

Here's a mockup of how you could fill the mapping fields to explain these changes. Also, this feels like the first step to porting DFU to handhelds like the Switch or Powkiddy. Most handhelds only have 8 to 10 mappable buttons plus the d-pad, so the number of hotkeys has to go down. This mockup shows some further consolidation. Float could potentially be merged with Jump. Switch Hands isn't that useful. Half of what remained would need to go into selection windows.
nomodes4.png
nomodes4.png (82.58 KiB) Viewed 148 times

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Hazelnut
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Re: UI/controls - enhancements

Post by Hazelnut » Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:59 pm

l3lessed wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:26 pm
Well, if I get the inventory script file recoded so many of the UI control aspects are public retrievable and manipulatable properties, it could easily be created as a stand alone mod, so core DFU is not touched.

Hazel asked me to start recoding the inventory script file and submitting the changes to the repo when I discussed how this needed to be done to allow something like my outfit manager within the original DFU UI system. I'll probably start that work once I get version 1.0 outfit manager out that uses the Unity onGui class, as it will need to be done anyways, if I want my outfit manager to mesh into classic DFU UI seamlessly.

By the way, all this could be done easily through the unity onGui class, and the numerous quick UI components it allows. However, it would have to overlay the original UI, and it wouldn't be able to easily stack above or below the default DFU UI because DFU uses it's own stack layer system to decide what UI is shown on the top.
Yep that's the idea. I just didn't fancy going through all the UI windows and changing permissions by guessing what modders may need. Sure you can understand that. :)

I don't mind the use of onGUI() in principle, but not sure it's a good idea with a UI window - it would be better to keep using the DFU UI classes so it works seamlessly. If you need a new UI widget, just make one. If it's well made an of general use we may even move it into core.
See my mod code for examples of how to change various aspects of DFU: https://github.com/ajrb/dfunity-mods

Jeoshua
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Re: UI/controls - enhancements

Post by Jeoshua » Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:49 pm

mikeprichard wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:21 pm
Hi l3lessed - not as far as I know, though Hazelnut mentioned he personally wouldn't want this change in "core" DFU. It would be pretty amazing, though - see the original discussion at viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1614&start=10#p18420.
Two things. One, that's not about the 3d interface , that's about tool tips in the inventory. Two, that suggestion was taken and implemented into Core. Did you mean some other discussion?

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Re: UI/controls - enhancements

Post by mikeprichard » Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:53 pm

Jeoshua wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:49 pm
mikeprichard wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:21 pm
Hi l3lessed - not as far as I know, though Hazelnut mentioned he personally wouldn't want this change in "core" DFU. It would be pretty amazing, though - see the original discussion at viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1614&start=10#p18420.
Two things. One, that's not about the 3d interface , that's about tool tips in the inventory. Two, that suggestion was taken and implemented into Core. Did you mean some other discussion?
My response was relating to his question re: my suggestion "1) Show full item data (including all item enchantments) in mouseover tooltips**", so the link I posted is the correct/relevant discussion. That suggestion isn't in core. Guess I should've quoted him for clarity, but his post was the one immediately above my response, so I didn't think it necessary.

I'm really looking forward to the UI mods and/or additional base features that come out of this work!

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Re: UI/controls - enhancements

Post by l3lessed » Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:55 pm

Yep that's the idea. I just didn't fancy going through all the UI windows and changing permissions by guessing what modders may need. Sure you can understand that. :)

I don't mind the use of onGUI() in principle, but not sure it's a good idea with a UI window - it would be better to keep using the DFU UI classes so it works seamlessly. If you need a new UI widget, just make one. If it's well made an of general use we may even move it into core.
Thanks for the clarification. I'll consider constructing a new UI widget. However, not sure if I really need one once I make the inventory UI accessible to outside scripts. See where it goes as I work on it.

Also, thanks for confirming my fears about using the onGui system. I didn't plan on using it on final versions of mods, just a quick way to get in UI to test code without having to worry about the DFU core UI components. I like working on UI at the end, as the way the code is developed and what functions are put into it can heavily impact end UI layout, as I'm sure you and others already know here.
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Lokkrin Zhataros
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Re: UI/controls - enhancements

Post by Lokkrin Zhataros » Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:13 am

Well this topic certainly exploded! I won't get to all of it here.

Responding to mikeprichard: Thanks for understanding. When we are presenting and discussing our ideas I just need to watch my own behavior and be careful with wording in the posts. I don't want to make any enemies or ruin someones day for any reason.

I like the ideas so far. The more we can reduce/combine the number of functions and shortcuts without complicating it even more or loosing important features, the better. There are some ideas I have with reducing more key-binds, specifically having to do with in-game UI menus, with some image examples. But I may put that in a separate post. I do have a few additional quick thoughts:

1 - Just for clarification - I'm just guessing here but all the "Modes" would still be modes within the games system. So the modes won't be removed but are simply combining them into a single function/key bind for much easier access and use. Am I right?
BansheeXYZ wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:41 pm
I will say that if it does somehow get in, you can't have it autopopping every time a building comes within 50ft of your LOS. The distance at which it activates would have to be very short and require your character to be standing still as well. You could also just disable it for buildings.
2 - I agree about distance here. Info shouldn't be popping up in your face every time you point in a general direction. On the other issue however - Maybe I'm misunderstanding here - Pretty much 90% of the time I use INFO mode for looking up names on buildings (doesn't everyone else?). Also in INFO mode as it stands I can use it while moving. Removing either of these features would render the INFO mode useless and the game intolerable, at least for me.

3 - Sneak vs Crouch: Lol! I forgot about this distinction. In all later TES games Crouch and Sneak are the same thing, I've sorta gotten used to that. In Daggerfall they are for the most part separate functions. I don't have really any issue with that either. Attaching Pick-pocketing to Sneaking is an awesome idea!

EDIT: This may sound funny, but some players (not really me) want to have a classic option to Pickpocket any enemy creature. Even bats and rats like in the vanilla game. Yes it was a minor bug/exploit/oversight in the original game but some people still find it amusing. Just thought I'd mention it.
Using Dagerfall Unity alpha 0.10.17

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mikeprichard
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Re: UI/controls - enhancements

Post by mikeprichard » Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:54 am

Lokkrin, again, no offense taken! This is a discussion forum about a video game, so in my opinion, anyone who gets seriously upset or insulted by any exchange of opinions on this topic would need to seriously reexamine their priorities. As to your points in your post just above, my thoughts:

1.) Yes, the idea would be to consolidate the "Modes" into a much simpler system that generally doesn't "lock" you into one function at any time (although the sneak-steal combo, while in a way still a "mode" under my proposal, would nevertheless be pretty intuitive I think). None of the useful functionality of the classic "Modes" would be lost by doing this.

2.) This ("INFO" function) is the only aspect of the proposed alternative setup that would in my opinion need some additional thought on the design side, as a balance would need to be found between constantly spamming messages vs. having messages always readily and seamlessly available to those who want that. I also find the Info mode exclusively useful for buildings. I think the ideal would be two options: a) one to select whether info messages show at all for buildings, NPCs, enemies, or any combination of the three, and b) the other to select the delay in seconds for the game to display those messages after the crosshair is placed over the target (building, NPC, and/or enemy). That would be simple for the player, and I think a good compromise that would mostly please both types of players.

3) Yes, I forgot myself what I apparently knew many months ago when I was first building this topic that "sneak" and "crouch" are two different things in Daggerfall, unlike the later TES games. Would make a lot more sense not only to avoid equating "crouch" with "thievery" (as in many real-world situations, crouching would make you more conspicuous, not less), while also allowing us to get some use out of the currently somewhat useless "sneak" function.

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Re: UI/controls - enhancements

Post by BansheeXYZ » Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:32 pm

mikeprichard wrote:
Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:54 am
3) Yes, I forgot myself what I apparently knew many months ago when I was first building this topic that "sneak" and "crouch" are two different things in Daggerfall, unlike the later TES games. Would make a lot more sense not only to avoid equating "crouch" with "thievery" (as in many real-world situations, crouching would make you more conspicuous, not less), while also allowing us to get some use out of the currently somewhat useless "sneak" function.
This one doesn't really matter to me, but you can totally understand why crouch was used to eliminate sneak.

-You never really talk to people while crouching (unless you didn't realize you were crouched, which the pickpocket icon would resolve)
-Crouch speed is as slow as sneaking
-It eliminates a hotkey, which simplifies the control setup and makes pickpocketing more accessible. It's also a no brainer if you're porting the game to button-starved consoles, which all TES games after DF were.
-It's not all that unrealistic: pickpocketing while pretending to pick something up off the ground does happen. Hunching over to hide behind objects like Solid Snake is how a lot of sneaking happens.

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