Mod Suggestion: Nerfing Lycanthropy

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Ralzar
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Mod Suggestion: Nerfing Lycanthropy

Post by Ralzar » Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:29 am

Being a vampire is a fun alternative game experience. You get some pretty sweet benefits but some drawback/annoyances with it that makes you have to shift the way you play the game. I have allways felt that being a vampire had a real cost/benefit tradeoff that made it a hard choice to stay vampire.

Lycanthropy on the other hand... ?
Come on, there is basically next to no downsides. Whenever I become a were-creature it allways happens in the early game because that's when the game spams werewolves at you. And it just breaks the game at the same time as not really feeling like playing a werewolf.

Things I like:

The werewolf form and how it works. No real problems here.

Things I dislike:

The absurdly high Attribute bonuses, while human? +40 to Strength, Speed, Agility and Endurance is a LOT. The real problem here is that it works during human form, which is just weird. Ok, you have somewhat improved physical attributes but 40? This also has the effect of making the actual were-form pretty pointless. You are allready a combat-god, why bother changing to were form?

The killing people to avoid maxhealth debuff. It is barely even an anoyance. You just fast-travel to a village, kill one guy, run away (with your +40Speed) and fast travel. Completely pointless.

The full moon forced transformation. Usually it happens while you are fast-traveling so you never even see it happen. If it happens to hit while in a dungeon or city it's slightly problematic, but you can just sleep through it.

Wereboars and werewolves are identical? When they have different images and different sound effects, why are there no stat differences?



Lycantrophy manages to be a completely OP while at the same time lacking RP flavour.


Suggested fixes:

Wereform buffs:
Werewolf: Endurance&Strength +10, Agility&Speed +40
Wereboar: Endurance&Strength +40, Agility&Speed +10
(all other wereform buffs kept as is)

Human buffs:
Werewolf: Agility&Speed +5
Wereboar: Endurance&Strength +5


When you should die, you instead get a 50% heal and turn to were-form.

You cannot leave were-form without killing a commoner or humanoid.

Once a month (full moon) the curse takes you completely over. When night hits, the game skips 8 hours forward and teleports you to a random dungeon/cemetery entrance in the same region. All items are unequipped, a dead body with some random loot is spawned next to you.
(Alternative Hardcore RP version: all items in your inventory are deleted, including wagon and horse.)


That is a werewolf CURSE instead of a werewolf bonus :)
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hannafamilycomputer
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Re: Mod Suggestion: Nerfing Lycanthropy

Post by hannafamilycomputer » Mon Dec 16, 2019 8:18 pm

I think it's weird if you get hit by one lycanthrope and can turn into the other type. Another way to seperate the two:

Werewolf
+ 40 speed and agility
+ 30 hand to hand
+ 20 strength
+ 20 climbing
+ 10 endurance
- 10 intellligence
- 15 personality

Advantages:
Immune to weapons below silver
Perma-magelight^
Disadvantages:
Weakness to disease


Wereboar
+ 40 strength and endurance
+ 35 hand to hand
+ 30 strength
+ 20 agility
+ 15 critical strike
+ 10 speed
-no change to intelligence
- 10 climbing*
- 20 personality

Advantages:
Immune to weapons below silver


Disadvantages:
Weakness to disease

^Wolves active at night, so they should be able to see in dark. I suggest a colored magelight, but short range
*pigs have hooves, not claws

Edit: You are basically invincable on full moons as is. You can just change to a human (which heals you to full), and it'll turn you back (healing to to full). Once you are back, you can turn human again.

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Ralzar
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Re: Mod Suggestion: Nerfing Lycanthropy

Post by Ralzar » Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:47 pm

Hm, I did not think about negative attributes. Nice idea!
I generally agree with what you wrote, the more interesting effects they gain, the better.
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Frozen_Dervish
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Re: Mod Suggestion: Nerfing Lycanthropy

Post by Frozen_Dervish » Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:47 pm

I don't think it needs a nerf so much as variation and enhancement of the guards and region system as no matter what you do there are no consequences such as bounty hunters, notices put out for a criminal, and city guards/knights/temple/fighters with no weapon that could harm the Werewolf.

If maybe there were a scaling punishment system such as:

Level 1: Guard finds you to level a fine.
Level 2: Guard(s) find you to bring you to court.
Level 3: A warrant is placed within 1 zone away of where the crime(s) were committed making guards come after you.
Level 4: A bounty is placed and bounty hunters with an assortment of stats/gear/equipment come and try and claim your bounty.
Level 5: Knights/Mages start coming after you in the region's surrounding zones. These will have various enchanted equipment/magic to use against you along with enhanced stats made for taking down werewolves.

To settle the crimes you need to sneak into the keep and plead/pay off your bounty in the region you committed the crimes.
Intensity of the levels outside the province you crimed it up in can be lowered as you may only be in the area, but as you kill your pursuers it will start rising in the adjacent provinces and depending on how much killing you do may quickly get out of hand on the map to where no where civilized is safe.

and since werewolf form is essentially a disguise wouldn't really effect normal play when you aren't a wolf.

hannafamilycomputer
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Re: Mod Suggestion: Nerfing Lycanthropy

Post by hannafamilycomputer » Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:04 am

Another weird thing is if you go to an inn and buy a room while in lycanthrope form, the innkeeper still identifies you by your player race. (Says how many days do you want the room for dark elf when there is a wereboar standing in front of him, counting out coins).

They must have set it up so that lycanthropy isn't a race, it's a disease, so the innkeepers see no difference.

Also, while in were-form, change your transportation to horse. Look! No hands!

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Ralzar
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Re: Mod Suggestion: Nerfing Lycanthropy

Post by Ralzar » Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:52 am

hannafamilycomputer wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:04 am
Also, while in were-form, change your transportation to horse. Look! No hands!
Well then, RP addition: Horses fear you. As soon as you turn lycanthrope, you loose your horse. :twisted:
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Ralzar
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Re: Mod Suggestion: Nerfing Lycanthropy

Post by Ralzar » Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:22 am

So I've started working on this and the results are very promising so far.

Stuff that's working:

Change buffs for Beast-form

Change buffs for Human-form

On the nights before a full moon you will get a warning that a full moon will soon happen.

On full moon: You turn into beast-form, the game skips a day forward and you are turned back into human form.


Not working yet:

Strip out all items and leave them when a full moon happens.

Teleport player to random nearby location during full moon.

Create dead human with loot next to you.

Hircine Ring effects




For the Hircine Ring I am thinking of making it so it works as normal, but on full moons you are forced into beast-form but keep control of the player instead of waking up a day later.


Something I'm also toying with the thought of: Having a mod setting for giving your character lycanthropy at character creation. I honestly feel it might be a better alternative to hunting werewolf and making them hit you :D
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Lokkrin Zhataros
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Re: Mod Suggestion: Nerfing Lycanthropy

Post by Lokkrin Zhataros » Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:00 pm

'Nerfing' is maybe the wrong term here. 'Enhanced Lycanthropy' is better! :D

Lycanthropy is far too easy in DF. I like most of the ideas for changes discussed here.

The idea of dropping everything, skipping a day and waking up in some random place on a full moon is cool. It encourages you to plan ahead for each full moon.

I'm curious though, how this would work with Tedious Travel and classic fast traveling (if you happen to be stuck traveling at the time of a full moon). Would travel be completely interrupted at that exact point of night arriving and transport you to a random place near the spot your travel was interrupted? If so, when using Tedious Travel it would be, well, tedious to find your items and force you to back track to where you were previously (good, not a big deal). If using fast travel, it would be impossible to find your items at that point, so pretty much count them deleted (hence best to plan travel ahead of time). Also, if you happen to be on your ship on a full moon, where would you be teleported to?

Also, on the part of removing the 'hunt the innocent' aspect, Morrowind just let you hunt down a random NPC. It didn't have to be an innocent, though it didn't restrict you from killing one. So maybe just a random enemy would work? Not sure if that would be considered too easy in DF.

Quick thought: why is it that bad of a thing for the lycanthrope to 'hunt the innocent' since we are already doing that when we take on most Dark Brotherhood quests? Is there a difference I'm not aware of? Lycanthropy is a curse that forces you to 'kill the innocent' where you are volunteering to do so for the Dark Brotherhood. Maybe I'm missing something. :?
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Jay_H
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Re: Mod Suggestion: Nerfing Lycanthropy

Post by Jay_H » Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:37 pm

The vast majority of Dark Brotherhood quests are for vengeance in some way, so the presumption there is that the person isn't innocent -- though the real definition of "innocent" isn't something Daggerfall establishes ;)
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Re: Mod Suggestion: Nerfing Lycanthropy

Post by Lokkrin Zhataros » Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:03 pm

Jay_H wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:37 pm
The vast majority of Dark Brotherhood quests are for vengeance in some way, so the presumption there is that the person isn't innocent -- though the real definition of "innocent" isn't something Daggerfall establishes ;)
Hmm, I'm confused by this. Then why in order "To join the Dark Brotherhood, you must kill at least three innocent citizens or fifteen town guards." I've had to do that with numerous characters who joined the DB since using DFU, so this hasn't been changed at all from the classic mechanics. Often times after becoming a lycanthrope and I'm forced to kill an innocent, I get the letter to join the DB automatically. Yes, most the quests are for vengeance, yet since you don't know the persons or circumstances involved and aren't given the chance to ask, you are trusting the word of the questgiver. Also, since the Dark Brotherhood is considered an illegal operation, these assassinations are considered crimes and therefore most likely murders.

So with that said, IMO at this point I'm not seeing a difference between murdering for the Dark Brotherhood or because of Lycanthropy. Except a curse/disease forcing the situation on you may be more understandable?
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