Thoughts on Melee Combat

Talk about the mods or features you'd like to see in Daggerfall Unity. Give mod creators some ideas!
Post Reply
FrancoStrider
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:33 pm

Thoughts on Melee Combat

Post by FrancoStrider »

I'm going to be upfront about one thing: I actually like how the classic melee combat works in Daggerfall. In fact, I like this better than in Morrowind. It gives you a few of options, the base attack is easiest to use, using the stronger attack is intuitive enough to use, but still awkward enough to prevent spamming and gives a solid disadvantage. I've tried the click-to-attack option, but the classic way always felt better to me, not least of all because I have those choices. Also, taking out the dicerolls, for me at least, feels like it's missing the point of the game's overall systems.

But there are a couple of things that could improve things. These are little things, and if you don't like classic combat then it's not going to do you any favors. But for those who do, here are a couple of recommendations.

1. Lock on. Here's what I'm thinking: Metroid Prime. You hold rightclick, and you lock onto whatever enemy your cursor is on. From there you can circle strafe with ease while also able to choose your attack. This will also help you zero in on an enemy in a crowd town. And before anyone starts, in real life people are generally better at zeroing in on an opponent (even if they miss) than Bethesda would have you believe.

2. Better combat sounds. So, this isn't really centered on the classic mode, but combat in general could use better sounds. They sound like muffled thuds as they are. Also, Critical hits. You never really know when they happen, and I would recommend a really harsh, loud sound for when they do.

3. Different swings do different effects: I've been on the fence about this, but here are a couple of ideas of what I'm talking about.

Diagonal swings: May affect the enemy's melee damage/hit percentage.

Thrust: A stun move, interrupt

Side to side: A sweep attack, hitting more than one enemy (keep in mind, that you have more of an attack arc in the original Daggerfall, and could hit more than one enemy at once).

Vertical: To be honest, I'm not sure. It's already a more powerful attack at a cost of accuracy. Maybe more critical hit percentage?

You can probably think of others, but these should give you an idea.

4. Adjustable difficulty: This is another one I'm on the fence about. The game, like most of the rest of the series, becomes kind of easy later on. But that could simply be because you know what you're doing, and even at higher levels, one wrong, dumb move can get you killed.

5. Level Scaling. There is level scaling, but only for the human enemies. I would like, say, the orcs be scaled to level, and maybe even the vampires.

So, I hope these give you some ideas.

Stay safe, everyone!

Regnier
Posts: 158
Joined: Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:26 am

Re: Thoughts on Melee Combat

Post by Regnier »

I can get on board with this. Ive been thinking recently that the original controls were maybe the first consideration as to how the combat/enemy interactions will work. Its so easy to manually dodge and rarely get hit, making combat feel samey from game to game.

If i were to play with the original configuration maybe the skills would mean more.

My sneaky character can run and gun just as well as a warrior.


I like the idea of the overhead strike increasing crit chance, horizontal allowing you to hit multiple opponents etc.

Another consideration ive had is enemy magic. I feel like it happens too quickly, i enter a room and am instantly hit with multiple spells. Would an indication of an enemy about to cast a spell interest anyone?

If i were to play on slow reflex with old style controls and i see a spell incoming i can cast a resist or reflect and have that be a strategy.

Im in a stream of consciousness right now just spit balling but does anyone agree with me?

I want the skills and scenarios to mean something, i engage rats and vamps very similarly: hit them until they die.

l3lessed
Posts: 922
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:32 pm
Contact:

Re: Thoughts on Melee Combat

Post by l3lessed »

Can't wait to see what you do, even if the changes aren't my flavor.
(keep in mind, that you have more of an attack arc in the original Daggerfall, and could hit more than one enemy at once).
One thing, this isn't true, unless there was a completely different ray cast system being used in the original. DFU, based on the original, shoots one ray out in the center of the screen on frame 2 of every attack. There was no arc casting code; I know because I had to build it from scratch for my mod to get arc casting and multiple hit detection in.
My Daggerfall Mod Github: l3lessed DFU Mod Github

My Beth Mods: l3lessed Nexus Page

Daggerfall Unity mods: Combat Overhaul Mod

Enjoy the free work I'm doing? Consider lending your support.

FrancoStrider
Posts: 7
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:33 pm

Re: Thoughts on Melee Combat

Post by FrancoStrider »

l3lessed wrote: Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:53 pm Can't wait to see what you do, even if the changes aren't my flavor.
(keep in mind, that you have more of an attack arc in the original Daggerfall, and could hit more than one enemy at once).
One thing, this isn't true, unless there was a completely different ray cast system being used in the original. DFU, based on the original, shoots one ray out in the center of the screen on frame 2 of every attack. There was no arc casting code; I know because I had to build it from scratch for my mod to get arc casting and multiple hit detection in.
Maybe it was less of an arc, and just the contact being less precise, but I distinctly remember hitting multiple enemies at once (I played through most of the original last year before switching it to unity).

l3lessed
Posts: 922
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:32 pm
Contact:

Re: Thoughts on Melee Combat

Post by l3lessed »

Would love to see it in a video, but I still believe you. It could be a possible thing, if the single hit/sphere ray hits both enemy detection boxes because they are overlapping. The math isn't always 100% precise when the end values are finally pumped out to figure out exactly what is happening in the world space, and it could cause something like what you're saying.
My Daggerfall Mod Github: l3lessed DFU Mod Github

My Beth Mods: l3lessed Nexus Page

Daggerfall Unity mods: Combat Overhaul Mod

Enjoy the free work I'm doing? Consider lending your support.

hfc2x
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon May 03, 2021 3:57 am

Re: Thoughts on Melee Combat

Post by hfc2x »

I'm so used to vanilla Daggerfall's (and Arena's) combat, that when I tried out Unity's "click to attack" option, it immediately felt like something was missing.

I think it's an awesome option for accessibility, but it lacks the depth of the original's intended combat system, making it feel a bit cheap, since your performance is directly affected by your luck as a player, rather than by your own decisions. And I don't mean that it's a bad thing to have accessibility, but there could be another game option that could implement a different system, probably taking a little bit of inspiration from Morrowind's combat to give the player actual control over their combat performance.

hfc2x
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon May 03, 2021 3:57 am

Re: Thoughts on Melee Combat

Post by hfc2x »

Oof, sorry for double-posting.
FrancoStrider wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 9:44 pm Maybe it was less of an arc, and just the contact being less precise, but I distinctly remember hitting multiple enemies at once (I played through most of the original last year before switching it to unity).
Are you sure you're not misremembering? I've played tons of Arena, and vanilla Daggerfall, and I remember hitting more than 1 enemy in Daggerfall maybe only once or twice. In Arena, however, it's extremely common to kill multiple enemies that are either overlapping, or that stand too close from each other.

I know this, because it takes me a while after playing Arena to adjust to Daggerfall's weapon collision, and I usually get destroyed by Vampire Ancients overlapping onto other enemies for this very reason lol.

l3lessed
Posts: 922
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:32 pm
Contact:

Re: Thoughts on Melee Combat

Post by l3lessed »

if the single hit/sphere ray hits both enemy detection boxes
The base game uses a single spherecast, which would still allow multiple enemy hits. If the small sphere collided with both enemy hit boxes, it would register both hits at the same time. This is not technically a true arc; it is merely a sphere being casted forward(just like a ray cast) allowing anything hit by the sphere, including multiple colliders, to register. It still is a straight forward line from the player, and nothing like a true swing arc that tracks and shoots rays out in a 3d arc that uses 3d space like the one I created for my ambidexterity and combat overhaul mods.

As for alternative combat choices to drag attacking and click attacking, I have added both look direction and movement direction based attacking in ambidexterity mod. This allows you to choose you attack direction through mouse yaw/look direction like in "Mount & Blade" or "Mordhau". There is also movement direction, but this removes the down left and right attacks, and makes movement correspond with the four basic attacks, up, down, left, right. You can also select both direction and movement based attacking to get both. Movement based attacks will override the look attack direction, so, if standing still you can do all attacks. If moving, you will do one of the four based on your movement direction.

I'm working on providing more updated combat mechanics for people.
My Daggerfall Mod Github: l3lessed DFU Mod Github

My Beth Mods: l3lessed Nexus Page

Daggerfall Unity mods: Combat Overhaul Mod

Enjoy the free work I'm doing? Consider lending your support.

Post Reply