UI/controls - enhancements

Talk about the mods or features you'd like to see in Daggerfall Unity. Give mod creators some ideas!
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mikeprichard
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Re: UI/controls - enhancements

Post by mikeprichard » Wed May 29, 2019 10:22 pm

Sorry for spamming this topic again, but I'm seeing more and more great UI enhancements coming out in base DFU. Any chance we may eventually see this "next step" in the already great DFU inventory UI options? Would be extremely slick.

Inventory sheet UI enhancements
1) Use info panel to show gold amount/gold weight; show full item data (all enchants) in mouseover tooltips**
**Credited to BansheeXYZ (viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1614&start=10#p18420)

stampedo
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Re: UI/controls - enhancements

Post by stampedo » Sat Jun 01, 2019 5:44 pm

I don't know if this was suggested, but a "Remove all/Take all" in the inventory would be useful.
Sometimes I have to drop all items if I have to swim, or if I want to loot everything at once.

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mikeprichard
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Re: UI/controls - enhancements

Post by mikeprichard » Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:03 pm

I agree that a "take all" (i.e. "remove" all in weird Daggerfall lingo) function especially would be nice.

Also noting a recent discussion with Interkarma where he indicates he's personally in favor of optionally replacing the Interaction Modes with more intuitive mechanics (see also my request in the first post of this topic) - viewtopic.php?f=4&p=26773#p26767. This would be a huge improvement over classic, particularly for the majority of DFU players who won't have prior experience with the archaic and extremely inconvenient "modes". I'm hoping this can be revisited after DFU hits 1.0.

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mikeprichard
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Re: UI/controls - enhancements

Post by mikeprichard » Sun Dec 08, 2019 12:18 pm

Pango has now implemented in pre-alpha build 0.10.14 the request "Use inventory info panel to show gold amount/weight when mouseover "GOLD" panel"; the OP list has been updated. Thanks, pango!

Lokkrin Zhataros
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Re: UI/controls - enhancements

Post by Lokkrin Zhataros » Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:32 am

mikeprichard wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:21 pm
Lokkrin Zhataros wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:13 pm
Nope, me no like!!! (unless I'm misunderstanding something here, which is possible) With all respects, I don't like the idea of using the mouse to interact with anything, not in an elder scrolls game. The "E" key is a must for me if we are going to centralize a set of functions down to 1 shortcut.

In later TES games you used the "E" key for Use/Open/Activate/Talk or Crouch + E to Steal. The mouse is simply not a good use for these functions (in my strong opinion). Mouse is for Combat only. Actually the default controls for classic Daggerfall is Left Click to interact. So this doesn't make any sense if this is meant to be a "modern" game mechanic.

The "E" key is everything in a modern gaming system. Otherwise I'm perfectly fine with the way Daggerfall works with switching modes.
I should've mentioned that these functions would only work when a weapon is sheathed - i.e. when you're not in combat - which to me is a whole lot more natural and intuitive than keyboard clicks. But this is just one (albeit in my equally strong opinion the subjective "best"/simplest/most modern and comfortable) way to fix the existing modes for anyone who isn't an old classic Daggerfall player who's just "used to" the way things were in the bad old days - the clunky old modes would remain the default in any case for that crazy minority who don't like the 21st century. ;) But as long as there's a more streamlined alternative to the default modes, I'll enjoy DFU 100 times more.

EDIT: Thinking about this more, you're absolutely right that e.g. Skyrim had a key ("E") system as you described, rather than left-/right-clicking for these functions. However, the only thing that matters to me (and I'd confidently assume the vast majority of modern first-time Daggerfall players if polled) would be a system that's simple and captures all use cases in one format. With that in mind, how would the "info" mode be handled in your Skyrim-esque system? It's unique to Daggerfall compared to later TES games, which is one of the reasons why I proposed the system I did: between left-clicking and right-clicking, every old "mode" would be covered.
Ok so maybe I don't understand your concept completely, BUT... Like you said, when I play a Super-Casualized-Modern-21st-Century-Game like Skyrim, Fallout 4, Witcher 3, Outer Worlds, among many many other RPGs, the default function is always the "E" key for Use/Open/Activate/Talk or Crouch + E to Steal (for the most part). It's always "WASD" for movement, "Left-Click" for Combat, "E" for Acivate. With Super-Old-Difficult-90s-Games like Arena, Daggerfall, etc the default function was Left-Click for Use/Activate. Tell me how is this modern?

I am used to unique keys haveing unique functions. Not one key used for everything like Combat+Dialog+Activate.

For the "INFO" mode I don't know. If we are talking about just one mode, maybe give it it's own key/shortcut that can be toggled on/off but still be used with the "E" key. I don't see why that would be an issue, even for confused beginner players.

And sorry for the drama and being a "spoiled-modern-casual-gammer" :twisted: (which I'm not :D ) but if the Mouse was turned into default Use/Activate key I would love the option for it to be switched/turned off in the main settings!!! Like a "revert to classic functionality" checkmark option. Otherwise if it was forced into the game without an option I probably couldn't tolerate the game and couldn't play it. Sorry.

Anymore thoughts/clarification would be welcome.

--I reverted this from the topic Language Usage Via dialogue mode to your UI/controls thread as it is more relevant here.
--Sorry if this is double posting or something. Please let me know if I did a no-no.

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mikeprichard
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Re: UI/controls - enhancements

Post by mikeprichard » Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:35 am

Lokkrin, you were too quick for me (yes, I'm an old-school grandpa gamer too) - this is what I just posted in the original topic in response to your above comment:

Critical difference is "casual" (gawd, I hate that overused term) in this case is good - the only "difficulty" we're talking about here is the awkwardness of an obsolete clunky control scheme, which for this "old-school" gamer (how many cliches can I fit in one sentence?) who himself grew up playing games in the '90s, isn't a "challenge" as much as simply primitive and inconvenient design. Also, I think you're missing the fundamental point that my or your or someone else's proposal for a better alternative to classic's Interaction Modes would be optional, not the default setting - see e.g. the "click to attack" base DFU option, which the player must choose to activate as an alternative to swinging the mouse all over his/her desk to land a hit.

EDIT: That all said, again, I'm happy for essentially any optional alternative to the existing classic mess, as long as it doesn't replace classic's four different modes with four different keystrokes (i.e. new modes) of its own!

Lokkrin Zhataros
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Re: UI/controls - enhancements

Post by Lokkrin Zhataros » Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:35 am

mikeprichard wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 12:35 am
Lokkrin, you were too quick for me (yes, I'm an old-school grandpa gamer too) - this is what I just posted in the original topic in response to your above comment:

Critical difference is "casual" (gawd, I hate that overused term) in this case is good - the only "difficulty" we're talking about here is the awkwardness of an obsolete clunky control scheme, which for this "old-school" gamer (how many cliches can I fit in one sentence?) who himself grew up playing games in the '90s, isn't a "challenge" as much as simply primitive and inconvenient design. Also, I think you're missing the fundamental point that my or your or someone else's proposal for a better alternative to classic's Interaction Modes would be optional, not the default setting - see e.g. the "click to attack" base DFU option, which the player must choose to activate as an alternative to swinging the mouse all over his/her desk to land a hit.

EDIT: That all said, again, I'm happy for essentially any optional alternative to the existing classic mess, as long as it doesn't replace classic's four different modes with four different keystrokes (i.e. new modes) of its own!
Sorry for the delay...

Yikes! Well you shared something that was relevant to the Pacify function topic and I messed it up by expressing my silly complaints/concerns :twisted: . I will take the blame for the previous topic being derailed.

I agree, Daggerfall is an old confusing/difficult 90s game. There are more functions and shortcuts in this crazy game than I can count. It needs a lot of TLC from modders and programmers to make it at least tolerable. I want to clarify that I appreciate the great effort that the team has made and is continuing to make (you included!) on making the game less ridiculously frustrating and more manageable and accessible to old and new players alike. This is important. It takes a lot of thought and effort. - I want apologize if I was rude. That was not nice of me, especially since I'm new to the forum and all.

Side note: I don't like those overused terms either :D . I was trying to make a point and there isn't many terms to describe the style of games different people like :roll: .

On topic - I'm relieved to hear that if implemented it will have it's own option to turn on/off !!! :lol:

My Concept: Well like I presented in the previous post - If we are talking about just 1 mode, and that is the INFO mode, lets discuss this for a minute. - What do we (or myself) use the INFO mode for? Well, clicking a limited number of objects like on structures, NPCs, treasure piles, doors, etc. for extra detailed information. In all other cases INFO mode is not used at all (that I'm aware of). This INFO mode was replaced in later games with the ability to hover-over an item/npc with the cross-hair to view the info automatically directly in the HUD. - So since, in Daggerfall, we have this extra mode that needs to be attached to something, why not have all other functions like Use/Open/Activate/Talk and Shift/Ctrl Crouch to Steal be centralized to the "E" key without switching modes at all and have the kinda-obscure INFO mode be a separate function that can use the "E" key but be toggled on/off with a separate key? Yes it's still a mode that you have to have to switch to, but now it's just 1 and not 4. Not sure how else it could work but will still brainstorm some more about it.

OR: Not sure if this is possible. But have an actual HUD displaying info using the Cross-hair when hovering over any object/NPC! Just like modern games!

Any more thoughts?
Last edited by Lokkrin Zhataros on Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Ralzar
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Re: UI/controls - enhancements

Post by Ralzar » Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:52 am

Allthough not as fancy as the changes you are discussing here, this was implemented in 0.10.14

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2969
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Re: UI/controls - enhancements

Post by Lokkrin Zhataros » Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:26 am

Ralzar wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:52 am
Allthough not as fancy as the changes you are discussing here, this was implemented in 0.10.14

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2969
That's a really cool feature! Reminds me a bit of Oblivion's cross-hair. A great alternative to what we are discussing. Makes at least a visual aid to know what mode you are in. I like it a lot! -Great work!

The reality is, the concepts I'm thinking of for these modes could be unreasonable or not possible. Trying to take all the modes and put it into the "E" key while leaving the INFO mode hanging, that may be impractical and/or frustrating for many players. The fully-moderized HUD for hover-over info, DFUnity may not be capable of implementing. This is just me guessing.

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mikeprichard
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Re: UI/controls - enhancements

Post by mikeprichard » Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:57 am

Lokkrin - please don't feel like you need to apologize; you weren't rude, just voicing an opinion (which is a big part of what the forums are about!). Practically everyone here is just excited about the potential DFU offers, and kicking around different ideas is only to the good of the project. Also, I can't take any credit at all for DFU development - I have made a few minor contributions/updates to the UESP wiki based on classic Daggerfall reverse-engineering and testing done by others, but the actual work on DFU is being done by others here. I'm just along for the ride. Anyway, would love to see more ideas around this from you and others who are interested. As I mentioned in the first post here (see the link), Interkarma himself may revisit this at some point and consider an optional setting to base DFU, which would be amazing, but even if not, mods are a thing, so this may spark something eventually.

And Ralzar - yes, I did see that very nice recently added new option, and it is now my default! For me, it would still be better to have a full alternative to the Modes themselves, but in the meantime, being able to see when you're about to pickpocket someone instead of just talk to them is a major improvement. Great to see much-needed QoL features like this continue to be added to breathe new life into Daggerfall.
hannafamilycomputer wrote:
Tue Dec 10, 2019 1:43 am
Crouching down dosen't always mean you are trying to sneak around and steal things. It doesn't make sense for realism. Otherwise, the Skyrim guards should just walk around and arrest anyone who crouhes down, even if it was just to pick up the sweetroll they dropped.
Finally, continuing this bit of the discussion from the other topic, re: the above, (EDIT) I had forgotten my own request from many months ago was to use the "sneak" (not "crouch") key to signal stealing "mode", so your issue wouldn't be relevant with my proposal - sorry for the confusion!

I completely agree that crouching in real life doesn't always equal "sneaking"/thievery (this issue has been discussed quite a lot in the past), but from a standpoint of simplifying the control scheme and avoiding the pitfalls already mentioned related to sticking to the old Interaction Modes, this proposal would have the advantages of fitting seamlessly into one overarching control scheme while also being familiar to today's players. Yet again, though, I'd get behind any similar solution that means you don't have to toggle four different "F#" keys every time you want to perform some basic common action in the game world.
Last edited by mikeprichard on Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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