The Future for Daggerfall Unity

[Balls-OFyre]

I cannot really expressed how happy I am to see old Daggerfall being updated after all these years. I've always felt it was one of the most creative-friendly RPGs for the thinking player, and it's amazing to see the work being done to make it so much prettier to look at.

It's actually still my favorite of all the elder scrolls games.

My question here is, once the game has reached a fairly "finished state" are there plans on tweaking it for improvements of things that the original creators likely would have tackled if they could have?

For instance, I'd say my biggest wish for Daggerfall of old was that it had the occasional more "logical" dungeon. I never minded the massive sizes of Dagerfall's epic lairs, but I sometimes found myself wishing for the occasional less "chaotic" and more "lawfully" designed place. Something with rooms that worked together that actually were inhabited by creatures that seemed to be more than simply beings trapped forever in empty rooms with nothing to eat or drink!

I'm sure you understand what I mean.

Would such a thing be possible in the future from a design perspective, and, do you wizards of design think it is sacrilegious and against the spirit of the game to undertake such ventures?

Thanks for reading, and for the fantastic work being done. It's truly a worthwhile project, and a game I will be sinking a lot more time into.

[charlieg]

This is the wrong place for this thread. This is more you asking a question.

There are already mods to improve Daggerfall. If you want a mod that provides some simpler, more lineal dungeon experiences then I recommend you have a go at implementing one! Every developer was an ordinary person once upon a time.

[Balls-OFyre]

Here is the description of this particular area of the board- "Talk about the mods or features you'd like to see in Daggerfall Unity. Give mod creators some ideas."

How is my post not "In the right place", exactly? I'm not talking about the mods or features I would like to see? It also specifically describes giving "mod creators some ideas"- does it not?

Also, I never asked at all about "some simpler, more lineal dungeon experiences". You put those words into my mouth.

I stated I like Daggerfall's huge dungeons, and I have no interest in them being more lineal. I was simply was wondering if it is feasible that in the future there could be less chaotic ones which has more logical implementation, with perhaps denizens having food sources, water, and heavier themes to make the places a little more like places something could actually live in. I'd like to see occasional ones populated around more thematic elements. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear on that.

I've worked as an artist for Disney for 25 years full time, mostly on the classic characters. I'm also a long time gaming conceptual artist having worked with Warren Specter extensively in the past and gotten paid for it. No need to be brusque and insulting to brand new first time posters here, assuming I am an "ordinary person", while you are not.

[Jay_H]

Welcome to the forums! Various threads like this pop up from time to time: https://forums.dfworkshop.net/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1210 and my own: https://forums.dfworkshop.net/viewtopic.php?t=111.

One particular idea worth mentioning is someone wanting to alter Daggerfall's block system to create much simpler dungeons. You can read a little here: https://forums.dfworkshop.net/viewtopic ... 240#p10589.

With no means to implement it myself, I started drawing more logical dungeon blocks, hoping that sometime in the future someone would design a level editor for Daggerfall like other FPSes have gotten: https://forums.dfworkshop.net/viewtopic.php?t=684.

As I mention in these other topics, DFU's problem isn't a lack of potential, but a lack of manpower I generally try to think of these things on a scale of years so as to not hope for too much. I trust DFU will have a very permanent community in the future once 1.0 gets out into the wild.

[Balls-OFyre]

Thank you Jay_H, for the nice reply. You write-

" I trust DFU will have a very permanent community in the future once 1.0 gets out into the wild."

I suspect that it will. Daggerfall is the rare game that has a core backing of people who consider it beloved. While those of us that played it in it's heyday are now older, the Unity version is sure to give younger players a taste of what a real roleplaying game can be. It's the breadth of Daggerfall's reach, the way the original creators dared to reach to the stars, that has resulted in just how memorable an experience the game has left.

The reason I mentioned the topic I did was that was really the only annoying or sore spot for me about the game. I figured that others too probably felt similarly about the chaos inherent in the dungeons in the game.

It's easy to understand the reasons for it. The designers were careful to work hard to make the cities, wilderness and dungeon areas generic enough that they would fit together seamlessly in the most possible number of incarnations.

This leads to no roads in the wilderness, the somewhat generic feelings town features, and the crazy dungeons.

I'm an old school artist myself. While I build my own computers, and can draw anything in most any style, (and am fast), my input helping with DFU would be limited to inspirational images for someone more skilled at computer art design.

No doubt it's a little bit of putting the dungeon cart before the horse with this subject before the regular features are done...but it's never too soon to look to the future, and this would be an area I'd be happy to help with, should there be any need for an old tiger like me with my skillset.

I do love Daggerfall!

Will put up some samples of what I do, if anyone wants to see them. Will give you an idea of my breadth of work,
Cordially,
Balls

[Jay_H]

Very good! The vast majority of our mod contributions so far have been artwork, so there's a lot done and a lot more to be done. One of our more prolific artists specifically mentions being influenced by Disney work, so I don't know whether that's anything important or not, but I figured it was worth mentioning

[Balls-OFyre]

Well, should DFU need some future conceptual art- maybe additional interior furnishings that match the game's original style, or additional monster/npc designs, feel free to drop me a note.

Here are some samples of my past work- I'm pretty flexible in what I can accomplish.

blot by Patrick Block, on Flickr

SC by Patrick Block, on Flickr

lyte by Patrick Block, on Flickr


akaten by Patrick Block, on Flickr

enchantress by Patrick Block, on Flickr

case1 by Patrick Block, on Flickr

[Interkarma]

Wow these are very good! Such an impressive range of styles as well.

I mainly work on core game features and don't participate much in the modding scene, but I love watching the community add new things to the game. Most of the 2D art and 3D models can be replaced now, and it will be interesting to see what you produce for art mods - if this is something you decide to take on someday.

There's a lot that can be done with the mod system, but naturally there are limits. Daggerfall's underlying design expects certain things to be built a certain way. Because we're connecting to the classic game data, we also inherit some of the design that was intended to be immutable back in 1997. This leads to some areas being tougher to change than others.

Textures and models are an example of something rather easy to change. And dungeon layouts are an example of one of the more difficult systems. Besides the general layout of dungeon blocks and their complexity, the game data contains a great many small details for placement of quest resources, random treasure, random enemies, and so on. I feel it would be possible to replace these layouts, but it needs to be done in a compatible way that still allows quests to function and put resources inside these new layouts. Anyone tackling this will need to have a deep understanding of Daggerfall's wiring to execute it properly.

To put it another way - the more dramatic the change, the more difficult it will be to implement. For example, I was able to shrink dungeon sizes after only a few hours of tinkering by injecting smaller, simpler layouts using the same pieces Daggerfall uses. That was easy. But to replace the pieces entirely would be several orders of difficultly greater.

Anything that sits complementary to core systems (e.g. a survival mod where player must eat and drink to stay alive) shouldn't present too much challenge.

My question here is, once the game has reached a fairly "finished state" are there plans on tweaking it for improvements of things that the original creators likely would have tackled if they could have?

I see this project as a something that belongs to the Daggerfall community. I personally hope it continues to be expanded, modded, and improved for at least another 20 years. It's already much bigger than I could have hoped, and I feel it's just getting started. While I don't plan on adding new content directly to the base game, my hope is the open nature and modding features mean this will happen organically.

On a personal level, I'm planning to work on one of my own original projects once Daggerfall Unity reaches feature parity with classic. That's not to say I'm dropping the project completely. I'll still be around to act as a touchstone for the community and trying to keep the vision alive.

But I've been working on Daggerfall "stuff" for a long time now. I released my first Daggerfall exploring tool in 2001 and I've been building ever since. I've learned a lot over this time and feel that I'm ready to stretch myself and do something different. So while I hope the project continues indefinitely, and I will try to help ensure that happens, I also need to move onto the next thing someday.

That's just me though, and this thing is already much bigger than just me. Truth be told, I think the community will take it much further than I ever could have by myself.

I'm also a long time gaming conceptual artist having worked with Warren Specter extensively in the past

Warren Spector is one of my designer heroes. I was lucky enough to catch his storytime keynote at PAX AUS 2015 in Melbourne, and spent the rest of the day on a high just having heard him speak eloquently about his design philosophies. Games like Ultima Underworld, System Shock, and Thief absolutely defined how I feel games should be made. The guy is a living legend. You were most fortunate to work with him.

[Balls-OFyre]

Warren is one of those people who not only is a creative genius. He is genuinely a very generous and humble man who more than lives up to his huge reputation when you meet him. His enthusiasm for the projects he tackles is also extremely evident. While some people in the arts are there to make money/gain reputations and further themselves that way; every time I talk to Warren I understand that it's his love for what he does that is the key to his success. He still believes in the magic, and has a great mind for creating games. He deserves the accolades he receives, and more.

Thank you for your kind words and your observations about DF and it's potential for polish. I think that for the most part, outside of it's mid-90's graphics, the game is pretty solid. I mean, there are not many games from that era I can still play and enjoy- but Daggerfall still entertains me to this day. It can still surprise me, and it's inherent sense of humor often makes me chuckle. Maybe part of the way it retains it's charm has to do with that overall sense that, yes, the game is deadly for the unwary, but hey, Daggerfall can laugh at itself and not take things too seriously. That's lets the game age with a grace it couldn't have if it was totally dark, grim and tried to be cool, rather than jesting with the player.

Daggerfall itself seems to be in on the joke that it's a clunky, old school RPG all the while it works harder than any other RPG to this day to cover everything possible in offering the player the widest range of playstyle choices. It's a real eye opener for younger players accustomed to adjusting their elf's eyelid height, but who can't climb walls to traverse the roof of the inn while practicing jumping and then levitating down the other side to return to your boat where you live the life as a magical merchant with your fabulous merchantile score and ability to speak three languages.

And you're not the savior of the world, like every single other player who plays the game you are playing. Because, what you become is your choice in Daggerfall.