Suggestion: Attributes above 100

Talk about the mods or features you'd like to see in Daggerfall Unity. Give mod creators some ideas!
meritamas
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Location: Slovak Republic

Re: Suggestion: Attributes above 100

Post by meritamas » Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:33 pm

Jay_H wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:07 am
Narf the Mouse wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:01 am
Also, still on the topic of attributes above 100, I like the method of adjusting the maximum by the racial modifier. So, for a completely arbitrary example, if your racial modifiers are:

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+10, -10, +10, -10, +10, -10, +10, -10
Then your attribute maximums are:

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110, 90, 110, 90, 110, 90, 110, 90
I like your whole post, but this to me is really good. A Breton or High Elf should definitely have greater magic potential than a Nord or a Khajiit in a permanent sense, and so on.
I like this idea, but would modify it a little. Like for a race with the following stats

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+10, -10, +10, -10, +10, -10, +10, -10
I would argue

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120, 80, 120, 80, 120, 80, 120, 80
or even

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130, 70, 130, 70, 130, 70, 130, 70
would be better limits of achievement under normal circumstances.

Perhaps there might be attributes I wouldn't tweak in this way. Or an alternative would be to turn off limits completely and let the player decide which attributes to develop. As I see it, currently, it is not possible to gain too many levels, so there is an implicit hard aggregate maximum limit there. (If you can only gain 23 levels and you get a max. of 6 attribute points per level, then you only get 138 points in total no matter what. This last idea - turning the limits off completely - is probably not a good one, I just wanted to illustrate the extreme on that side of the argument.
I would also argue that more possibilities like
Spoiler!
Oghma Infinitum - tried this feature out, too
can be put into the game but only at the end of difficult quests or quest lines.
Jay_H wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:54 am
Classic established that attributes such as Strength and Intelligence should cap at 100. Third-party utilities made possible increasing stats beyond 100. To not mess with the classic iteration, I suggest this be moddable at some point to allow infinite growth of attributes.
CM August wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:15 pm
In-universe, I interpret 100 to be the absolute peak of mortal achievement. On the other hand, if an option to let them grow indefinitely becomes available in the future, I'd love to see it as something that can be "unlocked" during normal play. After all, there's no shortage of deities in the Elder Scrolls universe who may reward the player with means to break those limits and go even further beyond... :)
I like the basic idea, but wouldn't make the potential infinite. Yes, 100 can be thought of as the absolute peak of mortal achievement, but also, we could think of ways by which and circumstances under which these limits can be transcended and to what degree.

EDIT: I had a couple of thoughts + I'd like to give a synthesis of what I was trying to say.
I would propose a system in which there would be normal circumstances and extraordinary circumstances.
Under "normal circumstances", there would be set upper limits, but these would not all be 100, but instead could vary by race or class. It makes perfect sense to have a High Elf or a Breton able to achieve more in the field of magic naturally, and e.g. a Nord or a Khajiit better naturally suited for physical challenges. Based on the character's race, in the attributes the given race has an advantage in, the upper limit could be as high as 125 with upper limits of 80 applied to those attributes where the given race has a comparative disadvantage (100*1.25=125 while 80*1.25=100) . These modifications could be thought of as follows. We consider 100 to be the pinnacle of mortal achievement, on average, but the individual races have their general tendencies, as discussed above, so 100 is the maximum that a member of a race with an average amount of talent in a given attribute gets. In attributes that the race excels in, it gets a higher maximum and in attributes it is weaker in, it gets a lower maximum. Optionally, during class creation, these could be rearranged by the player (I am not sure this possibility to rearrange would be good, just another suggestion to consider).

Then, there would be extraordinary circumstances. E.g. you finish a difficult quest line for the Gods or Deadra or a very powerful and ancient wizard (quests and quest-lines to be modded in, also) and as a reward, you can somehow become even greater at some attribute.
At this point, I aim to improve DFU by formulating ideas and working out some details of how things could work better.

meritamas
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Location: Slovak Republic

Re: Suggestion: Attributes above 100

Post by meritamas » Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:22 pm

It is not strictly on topic, but I thought I'd add some thoughts about skills above 100 because this seems to be the best place to put them.

When it comes to the limits regarding skills, I am thinking of a similar system to the one I just described for attributes.
There could be different upper limits to the individual skills. One influencing factor could be race. A second could be the class:
+X1 for Primary skills
+X2 for Major skills
+X3 for Minor skills
-X4 for miscellaneous skills

This could also allow for the achievement of higher levels (in case X1=25, X2=10, X3=0 and X4=-20 we get 75+20=95 more leveling points, meaning around +6 to maximum level that could be reached based on this second mechanism alone and potentially more if the Primary, Major and Minor skills coincide with the skills favored for the given race)

This is enough to describe the basic idea, but I would gladly (help) develop this idea further if it is worth pursuing.
At this point, I aim to improve DFU by formulating ideas and working out some details of how things could work better.

meritamas
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Location: Slovak Republic

Re: Suggestion: Attributes above 100

Post by meritamas » Sat May 18, 2019 8:32 am

I have read through the descriptions of races here and come up with the following.

Breton: STR -2 END +0 INT +2 WIL +2 SPEED +0 AGI -2
High Elf: STR -2 END -2 INT +2 WIL +2 SPEED +0 AGI +0
Wood Elf: STR -1 END -2 INT 0 WIL -1 SPEED +2 AGI +2
Dark Elf: STR +0 END -2 INT +1 WIL +0 SPEED +0 AGI +1
Redguard: STR +2 END +0 INT -2 WIL -2 SPEED +1 AGI +1
Nord: STR +2 END +2 INT -2 WIL +0 SPEED -1 AGI -1
Khajiit: STR -1 END +1 INT +0 WIL -2 SPEED +1 AGI +1
Argonian: STR -1 END +1 INT +1 WIL +0 SPEED -1 AGI +0

The table is to be interpreted in the following way.
-2 means that the given race has a base maximum of 80 defined for the given attribute. Likewise, -1 implies a maximum of 90, +0 a maximum of 100, +1 a maximum of 111 and +2 a maximum of +125.
I tried to set the figures so that it be as well balanced as I could manage. I left out personality and luck so that each race has equal opportunity in these areas.

Regarding skills: the basic rule could be that a character of a given race can master a skill to the same maximum as the base maximum stated above for the attribute that governs the given skill + any extra points enabled by the fact that the given skill is the character's primary etc. skill. So, e.g. a Redguard with Axe as his primary skill could develop that skill up to 150.

ADDITION: another example could be a High Elf who has Axe as his miscellaneous skill could only develop that skill up to 60.

ADDITION 2: the skill increase mechanism would also need fine-tuning. I think the amount of effort it takes to develop a given skill should be contingent not on current skill level, but on the difference between its maximum and current state. E.g.
If there is no change in this mechanism, then for the High Elf from the previous example to develop his Axe skill from 55 to 60, the effort required would be the same as the effort required of the Redguard from the previous example to do the same, despite the fact that the Redguard has much higher potential; to the Redguard, from 55 to 60 should be relatively easy and for the High Elf, very hard.

Now I can see one likely reason why the creators of the original game didn't go into this - it gets very complex very fast. But if we get it right, though, I think it would make a much better system.
At this point, I aim to improve DFU by formulating ideas and working out some details of how things could work better.

meritamas
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Location: Slovak Republic

Re: Suggestion: Attributes above 100

Post by meritamas » Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:56 am

I would like to further consider modding the attribute system one day - at least to be able to judge how difficult it would be to implement a given idea.

Does anybody know of a reliable source where I could find when and how the game takes into account the various attributes? The formulae themselves and when and for what they are used could be most informative.

I would particularly like to start with how high a maximum could be set for the individual attributes that wouldn't break game mechanics. Clearly, all formulae that use the given attribute need to be studied. I appreciate your help.
At this point, I aim to improve DFU by formulating ideas and working out some details of how things could work better.

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Sandro
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Re: Suggestion: Attributes above 100

Post by Sandro » Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:16 am

Just thought I'd pop in and express my interest in this subject as a feature. Enhancing stats above the natural is commonplace in the later games. Becoming a lycanthrope or a vampire feels almost purely negative at a high level without being able to go above normal stats.

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Jay_H
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Re: Suggestion: Attributes above 100

Post by Jay_H » Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:44 am

Indeed, it's hard to imagine a Morrowind without incredibly broken basic mechanics :lol:
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ACNAero
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Re: Suggestion: Attributes above 100

Post by ACNAero » Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:57 am

Jay_H wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:44 am
Indeed, it's hard to imagine a Morrowind without incredibly broken basic mechanics :lol:
I mean, isn't everything being broken just part of the charm of old games? Hell, look at Marvel vs Capcom 2 pros, they love their balance nice and broken :lol:

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