New advantages/disadvantages discussion

Talk about the mods you'd like to see in Daggerfall Unity. Give mod creators some ideas!
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Feralwarlord
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Re: New advantages/disadvantages discussion

Post by Feralwarlord »

Feralwarlord wrote: Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:54 am magic mastery [magic school] (eg. magic mastery destruction)
increases power and/or reduces cost of spells from that school

magic ineptitude [magic school]
reduces power and/or increases cost of spells from that school

magic inability [magic school]
cannot cast spells from that school
I'm thinking for magic mastery a 10% reduction in magicka cost and you count as double your actual level when casting spells from that school, and for magic ineptitude the opposite of that.

Narf the Mouse
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Re: New advantages/disadvantages discussion

Post by Narf the Mouse »

Feralwarlord wrote: Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:17 am
Feralwarlord wrote: Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:54 am magic mastery [magic school] (eg. magic mastery destruction)
increases power and/or reduces cost of spells from that school

magic ineptitude [magic school]
reduces power and/or increases cost of spells from that school

magic inability [magic school]
cannot cast spells from that school
I'm thinking for magic mastery a 10% reduction in magicka cost and you count as double your actual level when casting spells from that school, and for magic ineptitude the opposite of that.
I like the ideas in general, but double your level seems somewhat high - It effectively means that, for that school, your magicka goes from x3 to x6. OTOH, the dagger means it can still be balanced. :) On the upside, it would allow "specialized" mages - for example, a healer priest. On the downside, it could allow secondary magical abilities to overshadow your primary abilities. For example, a warrior whose Restoration spells are twice as effective could get quite a bit more out of the advantage than it might warrant.

Or maybe not - It would be cheaper than 3x magicka, and you might only use Restoration, but it's still not cheap.
Previous experience tells me it's very easy to misunderstand the tone, intent, or meaning of what I've posted. If you have questions, ask.

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NikitaTheTanner
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Re: New advantages/disadvantages discussion

Post by NikitaTheTanner »

Personally, not a fan of advantages/disadvantages system. Sure, it's very flexible, you can give very specific details to your character and for role-playing purposes it's pretty good, but I feel like it just screams to be abused. Often times you give your character pointless and senseless disadvantages, like "Can't use bucklers" or "Allergic to leather", just so you can buff him/her in some other significant way.

I feel like Fallout's traits or even later TES signs are more interesting, since you can better balance them, ensuring that disadvantages are actually related to advantages in some meaningful ways. Of course, it all comes down to creating interesting traits, so the player has some incentive to pick all of them, but has to choose, and not make one or two superb, some mediocre and some useless (or all useless, for that matter).

Thanfully, signs have changed throughout each game, so it's possible to assign unique effects to them, without making them not Lore-friendly, since I do like the idea of these star constellations affecting the character like Zodiac signs. Plus, these don't have to be related to character's class, they can be something else.

Just some quick examples, there could be more options (different aspects, for example) and variety, but my vision is something like this, unique and hopefully balanced at the same time (now I'm most likely not going to realize it, but who knows?):

1) Warrior
Born under the sign of the Warrior make skilled fighters, but rarely excel in something else.
Combat skills improve 20% faster, but all other skills improve 20% slower.

2) Mage
Born under the sign of the Mage make talented wizards, but rarely excel in something else.
Magic skills improve 20% faster, but all other skills improve 20% slower.

3) Thief
Born under the sign of the Thief make nimble rogues, but rarely excel in something else.
Stealth skills improve 20% faster, but all other skills improve 20% slower.

4) Serpent
Born under the sign of the Serpent are highly resistant to dangers of the world, but take long periods to recover and sleep a lot.
High resistance to poisons and diseases, slower healing.

5) Lady
Born under the sign of the Lady are kind and tolerant, they recover quickly, but do not like direct confrontation.
Faster healing, lower physical attack.

6) Steed
Born under the sign of the Steed can carry whole world on their shoulders, or at least a large part of it.
Higher carry weight, faster travels.

7) Lord
Born under the sign of the Lord can take a punch like a troll, but are also as intolerant of heat.
Higher physical resistance, weakness to fire.

8) Apprentice
Born under the sign of the Apprentice are attuned to magic, thus both more powerful and also more vulnerable to it.
Higher Magicka, lower Magicka resistance.

9) The Atronach
Born under the sign of the Atronach have no internal source to draw their power from, but can absorb it from outside world.
Much higher Magicka, absorb magic, no Magicka regeneration.

10) The Ritual
Born under the sign of the Ritual are full of life and escape death even in the most dire situations, yet constantly keep attracting it.
Auto-heal to full once per day when near death, attract undead.

11) The Lover
Born under the sign of the Lover are captivating and enchanting, and all their actions attract more attention.
Twice higher starting reputation with all factions, each reputation change has twice the effect.

12) The Shadow
Born under the sign of the Shadow prefer darkness and feel most comfortable at night, often being tired during the day.
Slowly regenerate Health and Stamina in the dark, but slowly lose Stamina in the light.

13) The Tower
Born under the sign of the Tower have affinity to finding treasure and getting where they shouldn't be, yet can't always use their talents to full advantage.
Always find more gold and open any lock once per day, but carry weight is reduced.

Al-Khwarizmi
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Re: New advantages/disadvantages discussion

Post by Al-Khwarizmi »

NikitaTheTanner wrote: Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:31 pm Personally, not a fan of advantages/disadvantages system. Sure, it's very flexible, you can give very specific details to your character and for role-playing purposes it's pretty good, but I feel like it just screams to be abused. Often times you give your character pointless and senseless disadvantages, like "Can't use bucklers" or "Allergic to leather", just so you can buff him/her in some other significant way.
I love the advantages/disadvantages system, and find it much superior to systems based on signs or traits for roleplaying purposes. I agree in the state it shipped with classic Daggerfall it is full of exploits, but nothing that can't be fixed, IMO, so the problem is in the implementation and not in the idea of the system itself.

Restrictions on using leather armor should just give very little (near zero) buff, as leather armor is quite useless in the game. Combos where one weakness is overridden by something else (like weakness to paralysis in a high elf, or weakness to poison while being immune to magic) should just make the weakness give no buff at all. It's nothing that cannot be checked easily with some logic. In fact, I consider that a bug in classic.

Narf the Mouse
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Re: New advantages/disadvantages discussion

Post by Narf the Mouse »

NikitaTheTanner wrote: Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:31 pm Personally, not a fan of advantages/disadvantages system. Sure, it's very flexible, you can give very specific details to your character and for role-playing purposes it's pretty good, but I feel like it just screams to be abused. Often times you give your character pointless and senseless disadvantages, like "Can't use bucklers" or "Allergic to leather", just so you can buff him/her in some other significant way.
I had the exact opposite reaction: The first and most annoying thing I found in Morrwind was that Birthsigns had replaced large swaths of class customization.

While the current system could be more balanced, it works rather well as-is - Among which is that "cannot use leather" is not worth much.

That being said, a birthsigns mod is certainly a worthy suggestion, and could be built on top of any advantage/disadvantage system.
Previous experience tells me it's very easy to misunderstand the tone, intent, or meaning of what I've posted. If you have questions, ask.

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NikitaTheTanner
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Re: New advantages/disadvantages discussion

Post by NikitaTheTanner »

I mean, it's obviously down to personal preferences. While I do see advantages in a more modular system, I also feel like it could lack the impact what could be produced with a more hand-crafted systems.

I'm definitely not trying to prove anything, I can imagine very well why one could prefer advantages/disadvantages. Perhaps, a third option might be the best of both worlds:

- Separate advantages and disadvantages from classes (leave classes as learned profession, while signs are personal)
- Add new advantages and disadvantages, balance old and new
- Create Birthsigns as default templates with interesting and balanced combinations
- Allow extra option to create custom Birthsign

This sort of system could work for everyone, providing enough material for a casual playthrough with some interesting presets, while allowing full customization if necessary. I think this could be an ultimate system, really. But maybe I'm just inventing the bicycle when it already works :)
Last edited by NikitaTheTanner on Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Feralwarlord
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Re: New advantages/disadvantages discussion

Post by Feralwarlord »

Narf the Mouse wrote: Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:27 am
Feralwarlord wrote: Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:17 am
Feralwarlord wrote: Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:54 am magic mastery [magic school] (eg. magic mastery destruction)
increases power and/or reduces cost of spells from that school

magic ineptitude [magic school]
reduces power and/or increases cost of spells from that school

magic inability [magic school]
cannot cast spells from that school
I'm thinking for magic mastery a 10% reduction in magicka cost and you count as double your actual level when casting spells from that school, and for magic ineptitude the opposite of that.
I like the ideas in general, but double your level seems somewhat high - It effectively means that, for that school, your magicka goes from x3 to x6. OTOH, the dagger means it can still be balanced. :) On the upside, it would allow "specialized" mages - for example, a healer priest. On the downside, it could allow secondary magical abilities to overshadow your primary abilities. For example, a warrior whose Restoration spells are twice as effective could get quite a bit more out of the advantage than it might warrant.

Or maybe not - It would be cheaper than 3x magicka, and you might only use Restoration, but it's still not cheap.
well a warrior will still cap out at 50 magicka, so while the advantage would make what spells they can cast from that school a lot more viable there is a reason you generally need the magicka increasing advantage for magic casters

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Feralwarlord
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Re: New advantages/disadvantages discussion

Post by Feralwarlord »

Feralwarlord wrote: Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:39 pm
Narf the Mouse wrote: Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:27 am
Feralwarlord wrote: Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:17 am
I'm thinking for magic mastery a 10% reduction in magicka cost and you count as double your actual level when casting spells from that school, and for magic ineptitude the opposite of that.
I like the ideas in general, but double your level seems somewhat high - It effectively means that, for that school, your magicka goes from x3 to x6. OTOH, the dagger means it can still be balanced. :) On the upside, it would allow "specialized" mages - for example, a healer priest. On the downside, it could allow secondary magical abilities to overshadow your primary abilities. For example, a warrior whose Restoration spells are twice as effective could get quite a bit more out of the advantage than it might warrant.

Or maybe not - It would be cheaper than 3x magicka, and you might only use Restoration, but it's still not cheap.
well a warrior will still cap out at 50 magicka, so while the advantage would make what spells they can cast from that school a lot more viable there is a reason you generally need the magicka increasing advantage for magic casters
I'd also see it as being more expensive than simply increasing your magicka I'll show you why

lets use this fireball spell
fire damage 1pt 5m radius + 10pt damage every 1 lvls

assuming a player level of 10
without the advantage this spell will do 101pts of fire damage with the advantage it will do 201pts of fire damage and be 10% cheaper to cast

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NikitaTheTanner
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Re: New advantages/disadvantages discussion

Post by NikitaTheTanner »

Some potential ideas for actual advantages/disadvantages

Advantages
- Learn skill faster
- Do more damage with weapon type
- Do more damage with spell effect
- Reputation bonus on start
- Gain twice the reputation when gaining it
- Find more gold
- Increase max carry weight
- Faster travel time
- Backstab damage multiplier
- Armor/weapon durability lasts longer
- Once per day powers/spells (invisibility/unlock door/heal/detect/etc.)
- Potions can apply random positive effect
- Enchanted items can apply random positive effect on cast
- Easier to sneak past certain enemy type (animal/undead/daedra/etc.)

Disadvantages
- Learn skill slower
- Do less damage with weapon type
- Reputation worse on start
- Lose twice the reputation when losing it
- Find less gold
- Decrease max carry weight
- Slower travel time
- Armor/weapon durability decreases faster
- Potions can apply random negative effect
- Enchanted items can apply random negative effect on cast
- Attract certain enemy type (animal/undead/daedra/etc.)

I also feel like the possibilities here are endless, these are just some ideas (hopefully I haven't repeated some of the existing too much :P ). Didn't want to include too many, as I think that at one point it would be awesome to have actual perks on level up, and see character grow as you level them up, but this system does seem to compound everything in the creation process, after which you only grow in stats. Not bad for the time, yet I feel like we can do better now ;) At least that's what I think.

Narf the Mouse
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Re: New advantages/disadvantages discussion

Post by Narf the Mouse »

Hmm... A perk system is another thing that could be layered on top. Organically grow your character in the direction you desire.

Actually, to take a bit from Battlespire - Ok, I've never played it, but I watched a Youtube review/summary - You buy advantages with points, and you get points from disadvantages. So, the idea:

You start with 1 point at level 1. Maybe you get 1 point per level, maybe 1 point per 2 levels; I dunno, that's details. You can take disadvantages to get more points, and you can spend points to get advantages.

So, your basic character could start with some sort of flavouring - Bonus vs Undead, or 1x Int in Magicka (is that too much? maybe x0.75 Int in Magicka...), or Adrenaline Rush.

Then, as they gain levels, they could add more perks. Maybe Bonus vs Daedra, or specialized Bonus vs Vampires, or Magicka Regeneration, or Regenerate Health (In General). Costs TBD, but some sort of ratio of dagger movement to points seems good.

Although, I must admit I don't like flat attack and damage bonuses. They're kinda boring. Bonuses versus specific creature types are less boring.
Previous experience tells me it's very easy to misunderstand the tone, intent, or meaning of what I've posted. If you have questions, ask.

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