Loans and collatoral

Talk about the mods or features you'd like to see in Daggerfall Unity. Give mod creators some ideas!
Narf the Mouse
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Loans and collatoral

Post by Narf the Mouse » Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:05 am

*Cheesy infomercial music plays*

"Has this happened to your bank?

Random Yokel "Adventurer": "Hello, I'd like to take out a Four Million Septim Loan."

Bank Teller: "Well, as per Standard Imperial Law, we are unable to refuse a loan to anyone, for any reason, so... here you go!"

And then, of course, the loan is never paid back, and the guards never catch them, because they're in another province. It's a wonder any bank stays open! Well, not any more!

With our non-patented additions to Imperial Law, you can now deny loans to people without sufficient social standing, or collateral.

What's collateral, I hear you ask? Well, let's run this scenario again.

Random Yokel "Adventurer": "Hello, I'd like to take out a Four Million Septim Loan."

Bank Teller: "Well, as per Standard Imperial Law, we certainly can do that! However, Standard Imperial Law does allow us to ask for collateral, so I'm going to have to ask you for One Million Septims of items, house deeds, and/or ship deeds! Either that, or you can provide papers proving that you are a Noble of the Empire!"

Random Yokel "Adventurer": *Kills the bank teller and robs the bank*

But no worries! Your coins are safe!

Random Yokel "Adventurer": *Is stopped and killed by the guards*

And, of course, when, er, if, the borrower fails to return to repay their loan, you can take their collateral! It's yours! To keep!

Now, any system can have flaws, and we're certain that ours does, too! But with your help, we can close some of them! Make this system perfect, er, better, er, perfecter? Well, anyway, if you have any thoughts or suggestions, please post them below."
Previous experience tells me it's very easy to misunderstand the tone, intent, or meaning of what I've posted. If you have questions, ask.

Narf the Mouse
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Re: Loans and collatoral

Post by Narf the Mouse » Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:51 am

So, had an idea that could lock down player loan shenanigans. First, I'm going to acknowledge that we may not, and indeed, probably do not, want to lock down player loan shenanigans; just move them from exploits to gameplay. So, holes should be poked in these ideas, rather than the usual hole-mending. That being said:

A loan would not be given as coin; instead, it would be given as a Letter of Loan. A Letter of Loan could be used as a Letter of Credit, with the following exceptions:

* Letters of Loan and Letters of Credit are not interchangeable. While both or either can be used to pay for something, one never turns into the other.
* A Letter of Loan counts up, not down. It would start at, for example, 200/2,200 current/maximum (that is, with current set to 10% of how much you borrowed, and maximum increased by the same amount) and current would count up with each purchase. As part and parcel of this, a Letter of Loan where current is equal to maximum is worthless (to you).
* A Letter of Loan which has passed its expiry date without being paid off, is evidence of a criminal act. You can drop it, but the bank of that kingdom still has their own record. In game logic, it could be labelled as "stolen", with a value equal to its current value (or maximum?). (This would require adding years to the game's date-keeping, but IMO, that's a good idea anyway)
* A Letter of Loan can be used to pay off a loan, but cannot be used as collateral for a loan. (A Letter of Credit can be used as collateral for a loan, as can coin)
* A Letter of Loan cannot be deposited in a bank.

Edit: And, to poke the first hole in my idea, the Thieve's Guild could provide a service that would exchange Letters of Loan for Letters of Credit...Albeit, not at full value; perhaps 90% of the remaining value. So, the above 200/2,200 Letter of Loan would convert into a 1,800 Letter of Credit.
Previous experience tells me it's very easy to misunderstand the tone, intent, or meaning of what I've posted. If you have questions, ask.

Usernamicus
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Re: Loans and collatoral

Post by Usernamicus » Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:27 am

Just so we're all aware, defaulting on loans and having consequences to said defaults were planned for the game: https://tcrf.net/The_Elder_Scrolls_II:_ ... an_Default

Anyways, I'd suggest instead of changing loans from gold to credits, I'd prefer a Bounty Hunter approach (to go with the vanilla being despised in the kingdom/barony thing). There'd be one or two Bounty Hunters spawn sometime soon after you default in an attempt to either arrest or kill you, and then every month or so have 2 or 3 more spawn & attempt to either arrest you or kill you. As an added bonus, we can make Bounty Hunters spawn more frequently will in the kingdom you defaulted in (maybe once a week).

This way, you can still steal from the Bank of (insert kingdom here) and get away with it, but the consequences will be both more dire and more exciting. Wanna play as some kind of outlaw? Well this will fit said RP quite nicely. :twisted:

Narf the Mouse
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Re: Loans and collatoral

Post by Narf the Mouse » Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:12 am

Usernamicus wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:27 am
Just so we're all aware, defaulting on loans and having consequences to said defaults were planned for the game: https://tcrf.net/The_Elder_Scrolls_II:_ ... an_Default

Anyways, I'd suggest instead of changing loans from gold to credits, I'd prefer a Bounty Hunter approach (to go with the vanilla being despised in the kingdom/barony thing). There'd be one or two Bounty Hunters spawn sometime soon after you default in an attempt to either arrest or kill you, and then every month or so have 2 or 3 more spawn & attempt to either arrest you or kill you. As an added bonus, we can make Bounty Hunters spawn more frequently will in the kingdom you defaulted in (maybe once a week).

This way, you can still steal from the Bank of (insert kingdom here) and get away with it, but the consequences will be both more dire and more exciting. Wanna play as some kind of outlaw? Well this will fit said RP quite nicely. :twisted:
I like this idea, and I've heard it was supposed to be in classic. :)

Had a couple of ideas:

First, maybe the length of the loan should depend strictly on social status? Would give more of a reason to play a knight, which is somewhat lacking at the moment.

Second, there's an empty space in the Daggerfall criminal landscape. Specifically, in the area of loan sharks.

And a third idea I just had; maybe the banks could give out bounty hunting quests? Banks giving quests in general sounds good to me. Could add functionality - The original purpose of banks was to protect property, AFAIK. Guards and vaults were expensive; a lot of people paying a bank was individually cheap.
Previous experience tells me it's very easy to misunderstand the tone, intent, or meaning of what I've posted. If you have questions, ask.

Helegad
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Re: Loans and collatoral

Post by Helegad » Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:34 am

It would be cool to see interest accrued in bank accounts too. I believe this was a feature planned for Daggerfall too.

Narf the Mouse
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Re: Loans and collatoral

Post by Narf the Mouse » Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:33 am

So some thoughts and also how to play-style this.

According to Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loan-to-value_ratio

The banks should only be willing to loan my Common Citizen of No Fixed Address and Intermittent Means Of Support a valuation of no more than 80% of the (theoretical) collateral value.

As such, my character (Theodeus Gernault) has a book that'll sell for 1627 Septims at a local pawn shop. There's a valuation. In order to not exploit the game, I'm going to take out a 1,301 Septim loan. Realistically speaking, the bank would have the book at this point, and gain legal ownership if I failed to pay the loan (say, after 1 year?), but I'll have to RP this.

Also, I'm not sure they'd be willing to wait an entire year for a random newbie adventurer to pay back the loan, so loan terms are a thing we could discuss.
Previous experience tells me it's very easy to misunderstand the tone, intent, or meaning of what I've posted. If you have questions, ask.

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pango
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Re: Loans and collatoral

Post by pango » Wed May 08, 2019 8:58 am

I like those ideas, let's try to flesh them out to the point something can be implemented.
Here's a proposal:

Assuming the banks do not have means to communicate quickly, collateral could be computed from local assets only as the sum of:
  • all the money you have into your regional account;
  • all the money you have on you (gold and letters of credit);
  • the selling price of all the items in your house(s) in the region;
  • the selling price of your house(s) in the region;
  • the selling price of all the items on your boat if any;
  • the selling price of your boat if any;
  • the selling price of all the items in your cart if any;
  • the selling price of all the items on you
(for selling prices of items take conservative estimates, let's say what you'd get from average, or even high quality shops; For items that can be sold in pawn shops, pawn shop prices)

then only allow you to borrow up to 80% of that value.

The loans due dates should be checked periodically, say once a day.
At 6 and 3 months of the loan term, a letter is sent to the player, detailing how much of the loan has already been repaid, and explaining the consequences of not paying in time. Those could be optional if you repaid more than 50% and 75% of the loan, respectively.

If a loan is overdue, and you have the money in your regional account, it is automatically taken from your account.
Otherwise your reputation drops by 5 points in the region, the loan is increased by a 10% premium and this starts a quest that sends bounty hunters at you every 3 months, no matter where you are, starting immediately. That should be at least 2 guards, but that may need to be scaled if they're not enough of a threat (spawn more guards or more difficult human foes with each wave?).
If they find you, you have the alternative to either pay the remainer of your loan immediately (losing part of your collaterals in the process, in the same order as in the list above. If any, the excess of the last item sold will be refunded as a letter of credit), or fight them.
If you can't repay in full they'll just take everything they can (bankruptcy). Either way, accepting to immediately repay should clear your debt, pacify the bounty hunters and end the quest.
Repaying your loan directly to the bank should also end the quest.
Of course withdrawing money should not be allowed until your situation is cleared.

This should be considered for each region individually, so if you have overdue loans in several regions, several such quests could be running simultaneously.

You can cheat the system by taking loans from different regions simultaneously, or repay a loan by taking another in another region, or even move all the assets you can to a different region before the bounty hunters arrive... and I think it's ok to allow such loopholes.
Last edited by pango on Thu May 09, 2019 12:44 pm, edited 6 times in total.
When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.
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BansheeXYZ
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Re: Loans and collatoral

Post by BansheeXYZ » Wed May 08, 2019 10:16 am

The problem with your idea is that the whole concept of collateral is that it can be seized and sold off in the event of a default. These banking concepts are too complex for the average player. They won't really be expecting their wagon, house, boat, and any loot therein to disappear from the new dfall repo man. And if they don't disappear, then why even use collateral as a qualifier?

The way that dfall currently calculates loan maximums is fine, but it gives too much. Way too much. It should be 10% of the current amount, and you should be disallowed from taking loans from multiple regions concurrently. Otherwise, you're cheapening the process by which a character works to get gold, which in this game is dungeon diving, questing, and petty theft.

As for the bounty hunters, that's hardly a deterrent. Far easier to become an instamillionaire and fight those creampuffs than dungeon dive for 50 hours+ methodically selling off loot. In fact, the bounty hunters probably have loot, so it's a win-win.

We also need to eliminate the free gold exploit that is loitering/teleporting inside shops. Shelves need to be steal button only at all hours, otherwise pickpocketing is utterly pointless.

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pango
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Re: Loans and collatoral

Post by pango » Wed May 08, 2019 7:25 pm

BansheeXYZ wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 10:16 am
The problem with your idea is that the whole concept of collateral is that it can be seized and sold off in the event of a default. These banking concepts are too complex for the average player. They won't really be expecting their wagon, house, boat, and any loot therein to disappear from the new dfall
(When you aim at average players, you make average games? :? )
I don't think it would be that hard to understand when the bounty hunters come after your assets...
BansheeXYZ wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 10:16 am
The way that dfall currently calculates loan maximums is fine, but it gives too much. Way too much. It should be 10% of the current amount,
That could be a thing, and it's way easier to implement for sure; Max 5000 gp per level instead of 50000, then in case of default don't allow another loan, done.
BansheeXYZ wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 10:16 am
and you should be disallowed from taking loans from multiple regions concurrently. Otherwise, you're cheapening the process by which a character works to get gold, which in this game is dungeon diving, questing, and petty theft.
I'm not sure about that, I suspect that was on purpose. Maybe not for gameplay purpose, but more for "realism", or at least consistency purposes. If banks could exchange such informations, then why have regional accounts in the first place?
Sharing informations so fast was an issue until relatively recently, even inside a single IRL bank.

So, would 5000 gp/level/region be acceptable? They're 44 regions, but it would require more time and effort to exploit that. And that would still be enough to buy weapons or a ship a bit ahead of time, but maybe not houses (which may have been one of the original goals of loans. Comes to think of it, that's an argument against the "80% of collaterals" rule, too).
BansheeXYZ wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 10:16 am
As for the bounty hunters, that's hardly a deterrent. Far easier to become an instamillionaire and fight those creampuffs than dungeon dive for 50 hours+ methodically selling off loot. In fact, the bounty hunters probably have loot, so it's a win-win.
That's why I insisted on scaling problem, bounty hunters must be a threat. If nothing can be a threat, we have other design issues in our hands.
BansheeXYZ wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 10:16 am
We also need to eliminate the free gold exploit that is loitering/teleporting inside shops. Shelves need to be steal button only at all hours, otherwise pickpocketing is utterly pointless.
Please don't switch topics.
When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.
-- Charles Goodhart

BansheeXYZ
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Re: Loans and collatoral

Post by BansheeXYZ » Thu May 09, 2019 7:10 am

pango wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 7:25 pm
(When you aim at average players, you make average games? :? )
I don't think it would be that hard to understand when the bounty hunters come after your assets...
The bounty hunters aren't the biggest problem, it's the player's assets. He can fight for his backpack, but not his house and boat. And if he treats his house and boat as containers, what happens to the items in them? What if the money owed is half what your house is worth? Do they still take your house? What if you bought the house in a different region? Settling debts, in reality, is a very complicated process, and that's why it usually involves the courts and lots of debate and paperwork.

So let's say your character owes 750k, the bounty hunters are going to offer you a choice to pay out of pocket or be killed on the spot? I mean, you really can't say "excuse me, do you have an impossibly large amount of gold on you? If not, prepare to die." I see no way to offer a choice here, which is why the unused text is phrased as a hit job.

You could send a letter to the player from the bank warning him to pay in X days or else, but you can't have the subsequent hitmen offer a choice, too.

Lastly, once this is all in place, there's an easy way to cheese it. Owe 750k in Daggerfall? Go borrow 750k from Shalgora. Owe 750k in Shalgora? Go borrow it from Daggerfall again. Back and forth infinitely with no consequences.

In real life, banks work together. Lenders look at your outstanding debts and loan history before giving you a loan. The loans also have structured payments over time, not "just give me 110% a year later and we're cool." This is why video games just don't bother with this stuff. Morrowind didn't have a banking system at all, and Daggerfall had it as a simplified novelty that still broke the game. It's a can of worms, that's all I'm trying to tell you. The solutions don't have to be hyperrealistic because the implementation already isn't. They just need to NOT break the game or piss the player off with heavy-handed consequences. There is also unused text for executing the player for the crime of murder, but the devs just decided certain consequences weren't fun.

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