Loans and collatoral

Talk about the mods or features you'd like to see in Daggerfall Unity. Give mod creators some ideas!
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Narf the Mouse
Posts: 506
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2015 6:32 pm

Loans and collatoral

Post by Narf the Mouse » Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:05 am

*Cheesy infomercial music plays*

"Has this happened to your bank?

Random Yokel "Adventurer": "Hello, I'd like to take out a Four Million Septim Loan."

Bank Teller: "Well, as per Standard Imperial Law, we are unable to refuse a loan to anyone, for any reason, so... here you go!"

And then, of course, the loan is never paid back, and the guards never catch them, because they're in another province. It's a wonder any bank stays open! Well, not any more!

With our non-patented additions to Imperial Law, you can now deny loans to people without sufficient social standing, or collateral.

What's collateral, I hear you ask? Well, let's run this scenario again.

Random Yokel "Adventurer": "Hello, I'd like to take out a Four Million Septim Loan."

Bank Teller: "Well, as per Standard Imperial Law, we certainly can do that! However, Standard Imperial Law does allow us to ask for collateral, so I'm going to have to ask you for One Million Septims of items, house deeds, and/or ship deeds! Either that, or you can provide papers proving that you are a Noble of the Empire!"

Random Yokel "Adventurer": *Kills the bank teller and robs the bank*

But no worries! Your coins are safe!

Random Yokel "Adventurer": *Is stopped and killed by the guards*

And, of course, when, er, if, the borrower fails to return to repay their loan, you can take their collateral! It's yours! To keep!

Now, any system can have flaws, and we're certain that ours does, too! But with your help, we can close some of them! Make this system perfect, er, better, er, perfecter? Well, anyway, if you have any thoughts or suggestions, please post them below."
Previous experience tells me it's very easy to misunderstand the tone, intent, or meaning of what I've posted. If you have questions, ask.

Narf the Mouse
Posts: 506
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2015 6:32 pm

Re: Loans and collatoral

Post by Narf the Mouse » Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:51 am

So, had an idea that could lock down player loan shenanigans. First, I'm going to acknowledge that we may not, and indeed, probably do not, want to lock down player loan shenanigans; just move them from exploits to gameplay. So, holes should be poked in these ideas, rather than the usual hole-mending. That being said:

A loan would not be given as coin; instead, it would be given as a Letter of Loan. A Letter of Loan could be used as a Letter of Credit, with the following exceptions:

* Letters of Loan and Letters of Credit are not interchangeable. While both or either can be used to pay for something, one never turns into the other.
* A Letter of Loan counts up, not down. It would start at, for example, 200/2,200 current/maximum (that is, with current set to 10% of how much you borrowed, and maximum increased by the same amount) and current would count up with each purchase. As part and parcel of this, a Letter of Loan where current is equal to maximum is worthless (to you).
* A Letter of Loan which has passed its expiry date without being paid off, is evidence of a criminal act. You can drop it, but the bank of that kingdom still has their own record. In game logic, it could be labelled as "stolen", with a value equal to its current value (or maximum?). (This would require adding years to the game's date-keeping, but IMO, that's a good idea anyway)
* A Letter of Loan can be used to pay off a loan, but cannot be used as collateral for a loan. (A Letter of Credit can be used as collateral for a loan, as can coin)
* A Letter of Loan cannot be deposited in a bank.

Edit: And, to poke the first hole in my idea, the Thieve's Guild could provide a service that would exchange Letters of Loan for Letters of Credit...Albeit, not at full value; perhaps 90% of the remaining value. So, the above 200/2,200 Letter of Loan would convert into a 1,800 Letter of Credit.
Previous experience tells me it's very easy to misunderstand the tone, intent, or meaning of what I've posted. If you have questions, ask.

Usernamicus
Posts: 13
Joined: Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:28 pm

Re: Loans and collatoral

Post by Usernamicus » Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:27 am

Just so we're all aware, defaulting on loans and having consequences to said defaults were planned for the game: https://tcrf.net/The_Elder_Scrolls_II:_ ... an_Default

Anyways, I'd suggest instead of changing loans from gold to credits, I'd prefer a Bounty Hunter approach (to go with the vanilla being despised in the kingdom/barony thing). There'd be one or two Bounty Hunters spawn sometime soon after you default in an attempt to either arrest or kill you, and then every month or so have 2 or 3 more spawn & attempt to either arrest you or kill you. As an added bonus, we can make Bounty Hunters spawn more frequently will in the kingdom you defaulted in (maybe once a week).

This way, you can still steal from the Bank of (insert kingdom here) and get away with it, but the consequences will be both more dire and more exciting. Wanna play as some kind of outlaw? Well this will fit said RP quite nicely. :twisted:

Narf the Mouse
Posts: 506
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2015 6:32 pm

Re: Loans and collatoral

Post by Narf the Mouse » Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:12 am

Usernamicus wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:27 am
Just so we're all aware, defaulting on loans and having consequences to said defaults were planned for the game: https://tcrf.net/The_Elder_Scrolls_II:_ ... an_Default

Anyways, I'd suggest instead of changing loans from gold to credits, I'd prefer a Bounty Hunter approach (to go with the vanilla being despised in the kingdom/barony thing). There'd be one or two Bounty Hunters spawn sometime soon after you default in an attempt to either arrest or kill you, and then every month or so have 2 or 3 more spawn & attempt to either arrest you or kill you. As an added bonus, we can make Bounty Hunters spawn more frequently will in the kingdom you defaulted in (maybe once a week).

This way, you can still steal from the Bank of (insert kingdom here) and get away with it, but the consequences will be both more dire and more exciting. Wanna play as some kind of outlaw? Well this will fit said RP quite nicely. :twisted:
I like this idea, and I've heard it was supposed to be in classic. :)

Had a couple of ideas:

First, maybe the length of the loan should depend strictly on social status? Would give more of a reason to play a knight, which is somewhat lacking at the moment.

Second, there's an empty space in the Daggerfall criminal landscape. Specifically, in the area of loan sharks.

And a third idea I just had; maybe the banks could give out bounty hunting quests? Banks giving quests in general sounds good to me. Could add functionality - The original purpose of banks was to protect property, AFAIK. Guards and vaults were expensive; a lot of people paying a bank was individually cheap.
Previous experience tells me it's very easy to misunderstand the tone, intent, or meaning of what I've posted. If you have questions, ask.

Helegad
Posts: 48
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2018 6:24 am

Re: Loans and collatoral

Post by Helegad » Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:34 am

It would be cool to see interest accrued in bank accounts too. I believe this was a feature planned for Daggerfall too.

Narf the Mouse
Posts: 506
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2015 6:32 pm

Re: Loans and collatoral

Post by Narf the Mouse » Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:33 am

So some thoughts and also how to play-style this.

According to Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loan-to-value_ratio

The banks should only be willing to loan my Common Citizen of No Fixed Address and Intermittent Means Of Support a valuation of no more than 80% of the (theoretical) collateral value.

As such, my character (Theodeus Gernault) has a book that'll sell for 1627 Septims at a local pawn shop. There's a valuation. In order to not exploit the game, I'm going to take out a 1,301 Septim loan. Realistically speaking, the bank would have the book at this point, and gain legal ownership if I failed to pay the loan (say, after 1 year?), but I'll have to RP this.

Also, I'm not sure they'd be willing to wait an entire year for a random newbie adventurer to pay back the loan, so loan terms are a thing we could discuss.
Previous experience tells me it's very easy to misunderstand the tone, intent, or meaning of what I've posted. If you have questions, ask.

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