Loans and collatoral

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pango
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Re: Loans and collatoral

Post by pango » Thu May 09, 2019 11:18 am

BansheeXYZ wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 7:10 am
pango wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 7:25 pm
(When you aim at average players, you make average games? :? )
I don't think it would be that hard to understand when the bounty hunters come after your assets...
The bounty hunters aren't the biggest problem, it's the player's assets.
I'm saying that when bounty hunters come after your assets, the notion of collaterals will become quite obvious, they just have to explain the deal. So my remark was about the collaterals, not the bounty hunters.
Obviously that was humorous, the banker should have made it clear from the very beginning too. I just don't see the "it's too complex" as a good argument in this case.
BansheeXYZ wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 7:10 am
He can fight for his backpack, but not his house and boat. And if he treats his house and boat as containers, what happens to the items in them?
See the description of the algorithm, in the list the items in the containers come before the containers, so they're reclaimed first.
BansheeXYZ wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 7:10 am
What if the money owed is half what your house is worth? Do they still take your house?
Yes (if you don't have the money), and then refund the difference on your account. That's missing from the description of the algorithm indeed, good point.
I will add that to the algorithm description
BansheeXYZ wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 7:10 am
What if you bought the house in a different region?
See the description of the algorithm, only current region is considered, when computing the collaterals and when reclaiming them.
So assets from different regions are untouched. Read the algorithm carefully, half your questions are already answered.
BansheeXYZ wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 7:10 am
Lastly, once this is all in place, there's an easy way to cheese it. Owe 750k in Daggerfall? Go borrow 750k from Shalgora. Owe 750k in Shalgora? Go borrow it from Daggerfall again. Back and forth infinitely with no consequences.
I described that already (along with other workarounds, but I'm probably missing more) and said I'm ok with such loopholes, that's still a game.
To make it slightly harder, maybe not everything could be considered in collaterals: money at the regional bank, local house(s)... maybe the boat as an exception, but nothing else that's too easy to move around (even if money at the bank can be moved around, if you want to). But having to deposit most of your money weakens the usefulness of loans.
BansheeXYZ wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 7:10 am
You could send a letter to the player from the bank warning him to pay in X days or else, but you can't have the subsequent hitmen offer a choice, too.
Why not?
You accomplish more with a smile, a handshake, and a gun than you do with just a smile and a handshake.
BansheeXYZ wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 7:10 am
In real life, banks work together. Lenders look at your outstanding debts and loan history before giving you a loan. The loans also have structured payments over time, not "just give me 110% a year later and we're cool."
In Daggerfall you're free to repay at your own leisure already.
Maybe the bank could send a warning letter if you're way behind your money/duration slope?
BansheeXYZ wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 7:10 am
Settling debts, in reality, is a very complicated process, and that's why it usually involves the courts and lots of debate and paperwork.
[...]
This is why video games just don't bother with this stuff. Morrowind didn't have a banking system at all, and Daggerfall had it as a simplified novelty that still broke the game. It's a can of worms, that's all I'm trying to tell you. The solutions don't have to be hyperrealistic because the implementation already isn't.
This has never been a try to emulate reality in all its details. I hope it never looked that way :)
All models are approximations, and in my opinion that's fine as long as they're useful for gameplay. I also favor some consistency.
BansheeXYZ wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 7:10 am
They just need to NOT break the game or piss the player off with heavy-handed consequences. There is also unused text for executing the player for the crime of murder, but the devs just decided certain consequences weren't fun.
But then you suggest to simplify the resolution of defaults by sending assassins instead of bounty hunters?

I think that having to start from scratch, or at least losing many of your assets at once because of bad management could be an interesting experience, in a game where you play an adventurer at least.

You're not proposing much willingly, limiting loans to 5000 gp/level was one, having some dashboard with all running loans another, but everything else is me trying to interpret your criticisms, more than a set of proposals you made.


Mid-term letter saying "you repaid X% of total loan so far, thank you/be careful" could be a thing; Maybe more letters, but I don't want to spam too much either, we receive lots of letters already. Say another 3 months before term. The letters could explain the consequences of not paying in time.
For fun I would love 4 pages long letters with lot of intricate conditions, but that's probably not a good idea :lol:
When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.
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Re: Loans and collatoral

Post by BansheeXYZ » Thu May 09, 2019 3:42 pm

pango wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 11:18 am
I just don't see the "it's too complex" as a good argument in this case.
I mean, there's also that thing where people play video games to get away from reality and the anxiety of paying bills. What about the fact that no one will accept these consequences? People will load an old save or edit the savefile before they give up all their loot, so there's really no point in letting them get into insurmountable debt. It's pretty much the equivalent of your character dying.
See the description of the algorithm, in the list the items in the containers come before the containers, so they're reclaimed first.
Some items are much harder to replace than houses, though, especially if you don't have a character with access to the item maker. Automatically choosing what things get sold off first based on raw value isn't going to work.
I described that already (along with other workarounds, but I'm probably missing more) and said I'm ok with such loopholes, that's still a game.
Okay? Well I guess no one is going to be harassed by debt collectors then. Guess you can save yourself the trouble of putting them in.
In Daggerfall you're free to repay at your own leisure already. Maybe the bank could send a warning letter if you're way behind your money/duration slope?
The point was that the banks know you're more likely to pay off a loan + interest if the payments are monthly and drawn out over time. Giving people the option to pay it back in a lump sum way later isn't standard procedure anywhere, anytime. Daggerfall is just simplifying the mechanic here and getting rid of the amortization schedule.
But then you suggest to simplify the resolution of defaults by sending assassins instead of bounty hunters?
Not only is no one going to pay them, the bankers know where your house is, and probably where your boat is ported too. They don't need bounty hunters to take anything except what's in your backpack. So the idea of having bounty hunters ask your permission to repossess items that are parked in place makes no sense.
You're not proposing much willingly, limiting loans to 5000 gp/level was one, having some dashboard with all running loans another, but everything else is me trying to interpret your criticisms, more than a set of proposals you made.
I'm suggesting modest changes to fix game-breaking mechanics. I don't like the idea of changing values unless they're utterly insane. And in this case, they are utterly insane. If daikatanas did 1000 dmg, I wouldn't argue to keep it that way because "vanilla". If 9 out of 10 townsfolk didn't know where shit was in their own city, I wouldn't argue vanilla. Anyone who works hard building wealth in daggerfall should feel rewarded. RPG design 101, make the player feel rewarded. Instead, he feels like an idiot because there are ways to get free gold at lvl 1 without even setting foot in a dungeon.

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Re: Loans and collatoral

Post by pango » Thu May 09, 2019 5:43 pm

BansheeXYZ wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 3:42 pm
I'm suggesting modest changes to fix game-breaking mechanics. I don't like the idea of changing values unless they're utterly insane. And in this case, they are utterly insane. If daikatanas did 1000 dmg, I wouldn't argue to keep it that way because "vanilla". If 9 out of 10 townsfolk didn't know where shit was in their own city, I wouldn't argue vanilla. Anyone who works hard building wealth in daggerfall should feel rewarded. RPG design 101, make the player feel rewarded. Instead, he feels like an idiot because there are ways to get free gold at lvl 1 without even setting foot in a dungeon.
Well, you dislike the mechanism of loans, and would find them acceptable only if they become irrelevant.
Had you started with that, would have saved everybody some time.
When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.
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meritamas
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Re: Loans and collatoral

Post by meritamas » Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:06 pm

I like a lot of the ideas here. A mod like this would be a good addition to the game. Would also like to add a couple of suggestions.
pango wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 8:58 am
Assuming the banks do not have means to communicate quickly
When aiming for authenticity, we should aim not for similarity to today's modern banking, but rather to how a banking system could work in the framework of a society in the Daggerfall (TES) universe.
From the fact that the consequences of crime do not propagate to other regions, I am inferring that the most reasonable assumption is that the (legal) consequences of debt do not propagate, either, so I would only consider assets in the same region as collateral.

Before going into how much and under what circumstances a bank will loan you, I think the first order of business would be to establish the consequences of not paying the loan back, because it affects how big a risk the bank is taking and therefore affect how much it should be willing to lend.
pango wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 8:58 am
The loans due dates should be checked periodically, say once a day.
At 6 and 3 months of the loan term, a letter is sent to the player, detailing how much of the loan has already been repaid, and explaining the consequences of not paying in time. Those could be optional if you repaid more than 50% and 75% of the loan, respectively.

If a loan is overdue, and you have the money in your regional account, it is automatically taken from your account.
Otherwise your reputation drops by 5 points in the region, the loan is increased by a 10% premium and this starts a quest that sends bounty hunters at you every 3 months, no matter where you are, starting immediately. That should be at least 2 guards, but that may need to be scaled if they're not enough of a threat (spawn more guards or more difficult human foes with each wave?).
If they find you, you have the alternative to either pay the remainer of your loan immediately (losing part of your collaterals in the process, in the same order as in the list above. If any, the excess of the last item sold will be refunded as a letter of credit), or fight them.
If you can't repay in full they'll just take everything they can (bankruptcy). Either way, accepting to immediately repay should clear your debt, pacify the bounty hunters and end the quest.
Repaying your loan directly to the bank should also end the quest.
Of course withdrawing money should not be allowed until your situation is cleared.
Bounty hunters should be effective, but common sense could be a limiting factor here.
In the case of smaller outstanding amounts, the bank might be content with only damaging your reputation and not send Bounty Hunters at all.
In the case of middle-sized outstanding amounts, the failure to pay could be considered criminal conduct and the bank could send some Bounty Hunters, too. The 'cost' of sending Bounty Hunters could be added to the debt.
There should be a threshold under which the accrued debt will not reach the next stage and the bank would eventually ceise to send more agents to collect the debt.
In the case of really high amounts, though, they should go into a lot of trouble and spare no expense to get it back or get back at you; this should involve challenges overwhelming to all but the strongest characters in the game and challenging even to these (in time I could give a few suggestions how to do this apart from the ones already given - I have a few ideas I have been entertaining in this regard that could be (re)used for several purposes...).

I think I would be fair if the bank clerk gave a warning of the possible consequences before you consent to taking out the loan.
pango wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 8:58 am
collateral could be computed from local assets only as the sum of:
  • all the money you have into your regional account;
  • all the money you have on you (gold and letters of credit);
  • the selling price of all the items in your house(s) in the region;
  • the selling price of your house(s) in the region;
  • the selling price of all the items on your boat if any;
  • the selling price of your boat if any;
  • the selling price of all the items in your cart if any;
  • the selling price of all the items on you
(for selling prices of items take conservative estimates, let's say what you'd get from average, or even high quality shops; For items that can be sold in pawn shops, pawn shop prices)
We could divide the classes of assets pango outlined like this:

Hard collateral (HC):
- the selling price of your house(s) in the region
- all the money you have into your regional account;
these are the only things the bank can effectively freeze (and/or seize).

The other items should not be considered hard collateral because you could easily get rid of them, without the bank knowing, in the timeframe from taking out the loan to the moment of default. Nevertheless, maybe it would be a good idea to design things so that with increasing 'effective Mercantile' (explained in a sec) the PC could get the other items mentioned by pango included as collateral, too. These were:
- all the money you have on you (gold and letters of credit); (AC0)
- the selling price of all the items in your house(s) in the region; (AC1)
- the selling price of all the items on your boat if any; (AC2)
- the selling price of your boat if any; (AC3)
- the selling price of all the items in your cart if any; (AC4)
- the selling price of all the items on you (AC5)

I don't like the idea of character level having anything to do with the size of the loan you are getting. The reason for this is that I regard character level as a characteristic intrinsic to the character - the outside world should give no heed to it. It is only a symbolic number that represents how well developed/accomplished you are in comparison to other characters of the same class. It's a proxy. It has to do with a lot of things, but it should not (directly) influence anything outside the character itself. I might be getting redundant here, but still, I'll give a few examples:
- Number of hit points > it is the quantity of damage you can absorb before dying. Someone else can measure it, say, by inflicting damage on you until you die.
- Strength attribute > it is how much raw physical strenth you can wield. It can be measured: how many heavy items you can carry or how hard you can hit with a heavy thing.
- Axe skill > it represents how effective you are with an Axe. If its high, you Axe-hit somebody better. A third observer can see and take note.
but character level -> it does not (should not) represent anything directly measurable by other characters - the outside world should be completely oblivious to your level

I suggest choosing other characteristics that have more to do with the given situation, like Mercantile, Luck, Personality. We could have a derived figure, for sake of simplicity, effectiveMercantile (because Marcantile should have the greatest - but far not the only - impact on its value)

effectiveMercantile = a function of Mercantile, Personality and Luck, social standing and clerkLeniency
clerkLeniency = Some banks should be more lenient and some more stringent when it comes to lending. Could be random or fixed by design or could even change over time.


The bank would give out a loan depending on the amount of collateral it recognizes. One way to do this could be the following:
the amount of collateral the bank recognizes (recognized collateral, RC) = hard collateral (HC) + any or all of ACX mentioned above depending on effectiveMercantile
the maximum amount the bank is willing to lend you (maxLoanAmount) = SOME BASIC SUM depending on effectiveMercantile + RC * a multiplier based on effectiveMercantile


One effect of this would be making it easier to get bigger loans. One way to justify this from a RP perspective is to argue that the collateral is not the only thing the bank has at its disposal in case of default; it knows it can rely on straining your reputation and sending Bounty Hunters after you, too, so it won't loan only up to the amount of collateral it recognizes, but to a higher amount.

Also, the interest rate could reflect the risk the bank is perceiving to be taking. With good mercantile skills, good luck and having found a lenient bank clerk, you could easily go up as high as 200-300% of collateral recognized.
minimumInterestRate = X %
maximumInterestRate = some high rate (like 50% or 100% p.a.)
if requestedLoanAmount <= RC
interestRate = minimumInterestRate
else
interestRate = minimumInterestRate + (maximumInterestRate - minimumInterestRate) * (requestedLoanAmount - RC) / (maximumLoanAmount - RC)


Perhaps the best way to set up the parameters would be to allow relatively young characters to get a small loan to buy some gear and around 100-150% or their HC as a loan. Then, in the case of characters with high effectiveMercantile, this could via ACX and the higher factor increase to around 10 times their HC.

Is it too complicated? Yes, it is complex, but (1) I have seen other in-game designs that are similar in complexity and (2) each and every player does not need to understand every detail. The most important to know is that:
- the more collateral he has,
- the better his social standing,
- the luckier he is
- the more lenient the bank clerk he finds,
- the higher mercantile skill he has,
the more money he can borrow and the smaller interest rate he can achieve. He can get letters with the basic information like the ones pango described. Useful information can also be given by the bank clerk at the time of taking out the loan.

There will, of course, be players who take that extra bit of reading and dig into the details. And that's fine, too.

BansheeXYZ has a point, though. The abundance of loan gold will effectively reduce the value of gold. This might be a big problem. One idea to not kill the game would be to (continue to) have the best stuff unavailable for gold, only through difficult quests/dungeons and/or highly developed skills/attributes (just like I recommended with regard to the Pegasus in this thread).

I wouldn't worry too much about the interests of characters who get into default in such a situation and subsequently lose their assets. This is so because there is one straightforward way to avoid suffering such consequences : 'Honor your obligations!'
Or, if you are going to be the criminal genius who cheats the bank (the owners of which I imagine are some of the most powerful people in the Province) with large sums of money, you better look out that you are really as cunning, strong and effective as you thought you were. Would make perfect sense.
BansheeXYZ wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 3:42 pm
People will load an old save or edit the savefile before they give up all their loot, so there's really no point in letting them get into insurmountable debt. It's pretty much the equivalent of your character dying.
I agree with this one, too, but I don't see this as a problem. This is a game. If you make a mistake, die, make a key quest target vanish, (get overindebted,) you have the option to load (or even edit) a save game. That's just how it is.

I see the the Letter of Loan idea as per Narf the Mouse mostly useful to exclude loaned amounts from being used as collateral as described above.
Also, during implementation, when formulating texts and naming things, I think it would be best to use older, somewhat archaic English names and phrases.
pango wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 8:58 am
You can cheat the system by taking loans from different regions simultaneously, or repay a loan by taking another in another region, or even move all the assets you can to a different region before the bounty hunters arrive... and I think it's ok to allow such loopholes.
Yes, I agree. Such loopholes exist in our modern-day systems, too. Shouldn't be overly concerned with them.
At this point, I aim to improve DFU by formulating ideas and working out some details of how things could work better.

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Re: Loans and collatoral

Post by BansheeXYZ » Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:19 pm

meritamas wrote:I agree with this one, too, but I don't see this as a problem. This is a game. If you make a mistake, die, make a key quest target vanish, (get overindebted,) you have the option to load (or even edit) a save game. That's just how it is.
People save often enough to where regular dying doesn't elicit cheating, but you take all their loot and they will cheat. You'll never take all that collateral.

You're approaching bank loans as if it's something the last 20 years of rpg developers just forgot to add. If it's a good idea, we'd have good examples of it by now in acclaimed titles. You can literally google it and see threads of people discussing how exploit-ridden it would be. But also how it would counteract the unrealistic fun that drives most rpgs: people killing monsters as their primary income. How is something boring and easy like clicking on a banker going to co-exist with slow gold accrual through quests and combat? You'd ruin the sense of economic progression in the game.

Of course, we're talking about a game that also gives you an ebony dagger at lvl1 and lets you enchant your own super items instead of finding them. Even when you level up, the game simply makes the same enemies harder to match you. So we have a character progression game where all the best items are self-made, sell loot is chump change compared to free loans, and you're instantly given a weapon that's useful the whole game. I think it's safe to say that dfall is memorable because of it's amazing music and atmosphere, not it's balance.
meritamas wrote:Such loopholes exist in our modern-day systems, too.
No they don't. And they wouldn't exist in dfall world either. If guilds and royals can track you down with couriers anywhere to give you letters, regional banks can do the same between themselves.

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Re: Loans and collatoral

Post by meritamas » Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:59 am

BansheeXYZ wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:19 pm
meritamas wrote:I agree with this one, too, but I don't see this as a problem. This is a game. If you make a mistake, die, make a key quest target vanish, (get overindebted,) you have the option to load (or even edit) a save game. That's just how it is.
People save often enough to where regular dying doesn't elicit cheating, but you take all their loot and they will cheat. You'll never take all that collateral.

You're approaching bank loans as if it's something the last 20 years of rpg developers just forgot to add. If it's a good idea, we'd have good examples of it by now in acclaimed titles. You can literally google it and see threads of people discussing how exploit-ridden it would be. But also how it would counteract the unrealistic fun that drives most rpgs: people killing monsters as their primary income. How is something boring and easy like clicking on a banker going to co-exist with slow gold accrual through quests and combat? You'd ruin the sense of economic progression in the game.
I think it is fair to say we are in a disagreement here, which is perfectly okay. The world is propelled forward by the competition of contradicting ideas. Short replies to some of your points:
BansheeXYZ wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:19 pm
You'll never take all that collateral.
I am not saying the bank will be able to effectively take it. I am suggesting that under some circumstances (like if you are really persuasive, or lucky or if the bank clerk simply does not care), the bank could think it can take it and come to a conclusion based on that. If you want to run away with the gold, it is then on you to hide your stuff from being taken by the bank and fight off the bank's agents.
BansheeXYZ wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:19 pm
Of course, we're talking about a game that also gives you an ebony dagger at lvl1
You are a special agent of the Emperor. It shouldn't be the ebony dagger that is surprising in this situation, but the fact that you are level 1 and feebly weak - why in the world would the Emperor task such a week character with such an important task... it seems unrealistic. But then again, I understand that the sense of character progression is important in a game, and we would like a game where you could make the initial decisions of character development, so I'll just let this one go. I concede, it is better to have the PC begin from level 1.
BansheeXYZ wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:19 pm
...and lets you enchant your own super items instead of finding them.
If the PC can become a formidable wizard, you would expect him to be able to enchant things. With that said, I would prefer if you'd need to work to obtain the best things. If this is not the case at any time, I think it warrants some balancing, but I would refrain from nixing features altogether, if things can be balanced out otherwise.
BansheeXYZ wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:19 pm
Even when you level up, the game simply makes the same enemies harder to match you.
I would also really like a mod to make the outside world unleveled, that is not contingent on your character level in any way.
BansheeXYZ wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:19 pm
...sell loot is chump change compared to free loans...
I wasn't suggesting free loans. If you study those formulae, I think you can conclude that it would take a lot of effort to get a sizeable loan under the system I am suggesting.
BansheeXYZ wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:19 pm
meritamas wrote:Such loopholes exist in our modern-day systems, too.
No they don't. And they wouldn't exist in dfall world either. If guilds and royals can track you down with couriers anywhere to give you letters, regional banks can do the same between themselves.
As for today's banking systems, after the Financial Crisis of 2008-09, I think it is fair say to that even in our modern times, there are cases when people do get a loan who cannot pay it back. And these are just the masses. As for the elite, let's just say that there is still a lot of places where if you know how to conduct business and with whom, you can get a loan regardless of objective measures of solvency. I think the idea of having more lenient banks and characters with high personality and mercantile getting substantially bigger loans in comparison to their lesser counterparts models this phenomenon well enough.

As for letters, I would consider the possibility of removing or severely limiting that feature too, because it is also unrealistic. How in the world would they find you with the letters and what would such a service cost?

An important note to make is that I am not advocating to make changes to the core game. I am saying such a mod would be useful and maybe some people would enjoy the game more with such a mod than without. If it is implemented well, I would likely fall into this category. I think it would add to the game if the PC could earn his gold in other ways, not only by killing people and things. I particularly liked the possibility in Morrowind of making a living through Alchemy.
BansheeXYZ wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:19 pm
You're approaching bank loans as if it's something the last 20 years of rpg developers just forgot to add. If it's a good idea, we'd have good examples of it by now in acclaimed titles.
Nothing new would ever get implemented with this line of reasoning. I see chance enough it would be good to argue in favor of implementing such a mod and trying it.

Others can argue otherwise. In the end, the only thing that should matter and that most likely will matter is whether there will be enough people who want such a mod enough to actually create it. Even if the mod is created, those who don't like it will still have the option of playing DFU without it.
At this point, I aim to improve DFU by formulating ideas and working out some details of how things could work better.

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Re: Loans and collatoral

Post by BansheeXYZ » Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:27 am

Scammers! How did you find us!?

edit: ah, he either deleted his post or a mod did. Now my post looks wierd.

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Re: Loans and collatoral

Post by l3lessed » Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:17 pm

I like the bounty hunter idea. However, if you tied it in with some of the less used skills, it would add a new layer to it.

As an example, the higher your stealth skill, the less likely bounty hunters will spawn since you are so dang good at hiding from people.

Or, the higher your persuasion, it will allow certain options, like paying the bounty hunters more gold than they got paid to turn their aggro off and have them leave you alone until the next ones come knocking on your door; or maybe even try and bluff them into believing you're not who you are. Or, maybe allow intimidation against them if your strength and persuasion is high enough.

This way, being an outlaw can be more immersive and require more thought when building a character.
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