Unleveled world

Talk about the mods or features you'd like to see in Daggerfall Unity. Give mod creators some ideas!
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Gaggerballz
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Re: Unleveled world

Post by Gaggerballz » Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:38 am

Interkermit wrote:
Gaggerballz wrote:
Interkermit wrote:
I just noticed, you're the 300th member to join the forums!

Rad! Thanks for noticing me :D . Nice idea btw, I believe the DF main quest is kinda similar, each dungeon having a set level range and a level requirement before the quest becomes available.
It is isn't it... I've never really thought the idea through to much, so there might be some issues. The reasoning behind it is to be able to have an unleveled world without constantly dieing around every corner at lower levels, while it still being mostly plausible.
Most old-school classic rgps had some sort of "difficulty tier zones/levels" that served to sort of guide the player through the game in a more-or-less immersive manner (thinking of Gothic 1 and 2 off the top of my head). The trick with applying it to DF (coding issues aside) I think would be implementing some such system in a way that doesn't break the "openness" of the game.

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Jay_H
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Re: Unleveled world

Post by Jay_H » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:05 pm

One of the things I thought of is that the mod would need to do is mark all dungeons with level markers, like from 1 to 5. These could be constant in every game; for example, Ruins of Old Lysanna's Place could be a 4, Castle Mastercroft could be a 1, and so on. Based on these numbers, enemies inside would spawn at corresponding levels: a 1 would be filled with weak humans, skeletons, and rats; a 2 would have atronachs, orcs, werewolves, and so on.

Of necessity, quests would probably have to stop causing a reputation loss on quest fail, since the PC is going to be sent to a lot of dungeons on quests way out of his/her level range.

As you come close to the dungeon, along with the flavor text ("You see runes etched in the dirt." "Was that an orcish sigil?"), you could also get some mention of how hard the dungeon is going to be. ("You sense serious turmoil in this area." "You feel little fear here.")

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Channel1
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Re: Unleveled world

Post by Channel1 » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:16 pm

Jay_H wrote:One of the things I thought of is that the mod would need to do is mark all dungeons with level markers, like from 1 to 5. These could be constant in every game; for example, Ruins of Old Lysanna's Place could be a 4, Castle Mastercroft could be a 1, and so on. Based on these numbers, enemies inside would spawn at corresponding levels: a 1 would be filled with weak humans, skeletons, and rats; a 2 would have atronachs, orcs, werewolves, and so on.

Of necessity, quests would probably have to stop causing a reputation loss on quest fail, since the PC is going to be sent to a lot of dungeons on quests way out of his/her level range.

As you come close to the dungeon, along with the flavor text ("You see runes etched in the dirt." "Was that an orcish sigil?"), you could also get some mention of how hard the dungeon is going to be. ("You sense serious turmoil in this area." "You feel little fear here.")
What I was thinking is just having different dungeons being different levels, but not based on what region there were in, and having quests send you to dungeons of levels similar to yours.

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Jay_H
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Re: Unleveled world

Post by Jay_H » Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:27 pm

I had thought of matching quests to dungeon levels, but wouldn't that return us to the problem of a leveled world?

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Channel1
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Re: Unleveled world

Post by Channel1 » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:31 pm

Jay_H wrote:I had thought of matching quests to dungeon levels, but wouldn't that return us to the problem of a leveled world?
I don't think so, but I could very well be wrong. My reasoning is that the quest giver is aware of your strength and sends you to an appropriate dungeon, this doesn't stop you from finding higher or lower level dungeons when exploring the wilderness or on maps, and also doesn't stop you from revisiting lower level dungeons.

Two side notes: The quests given out could be based on ranking in the faction instead of the player level, and that this whole idea might cause some issues in smaller kingdoms like Betony or Antiphyllos who only have 8 dungeons each.

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pango
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Re: Unleveled world

Post by pango » Sun Apr 07, 2019 5:48 pm

NikitaTheTanner wrote:
Sun Feb 07, 2016 7:26 am
To make sure player does not abuse the system put the best loot on the enemies and inside locked chests, leave only the worst loot on the ground. That way, even if player gets into high level dungeon, he has little chance of stealing something very good easily.
I'm not sure what you mean by "locked chests" and how they'd be supposed to work.
I suggest that the quality of the "free" loot (not found on dead bodies) could be capped by some function of the distance to the entrance, so you have the go deeper into the most dangerous dungeons to have a chance to find the best stuff. It could be explained by previous adventurers having already looted everything near the entrance.

Unleveled shops worry me a bit, all you'd need to get the best gear would be to grind enough gold?
Well grinding takes effort in itself, so maybe that's sufficient. There's also the problem of correctly balancing prices with everything else.
I wonder if high level gear should also require higher skill before one is proficient with it. In other words, you need enough training before you can use the deadliest weapons (... otherwise you may even hurt yourself instead of your opponent).
Jay_H wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:05 pm
Of necessity, quests would probably have to stop causing a reputation loss on quest fail, since the PC is going to be sent to a lot of dungeons on quests way out of his/her level range.
Just to bring in more ideas, we could also borrow some from ELO rating.
If you accept an easy quest, you have a high probability of success, so you'll only gain a minimal amount of rep in case of success, and loose significant amount for failing (what a let down!)
On the other hand, if you accept a hard quest, you have a high probability of failing, so you'd gain a lot of reputation if you succeed, and only lose a minimal amount if, as expected, you failed.
When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.
-- Charles Goodhart

meritamas
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Re: Unleveled world

Post by meritamas » Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:21 pm

Channel1 wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:43 am
What I've always wanted is for the whole world to be completely unleveled, but for each dungeon to have a level (with monsters appropriate to it) and for quests to send you to dungeons with levels around yours.
+1
Gaggerballz wrote:Hope to see something implemented one day, so that my level 20 character doesn't come across daedric items in every shop or on every random human enemy, and every dungeon isn't miraculously all of a sudden home to nothing but ancient liches and master vampires.
+1

I agree. A daedra lord is as strong as a daedra lord is, and that should not depend upon whether you encounter it at level 3 or level 19. Same goes for lesser monsters and other NPCs. But of course, you should not have too big a chance to encounter a daedra lord at level 3 unless you are specifically looking for trouble.
pango wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 5:48 pm
Just to bring in more ideas, we could also borrow some from ELO rating.
If you accept an easy quest, you have a high probability of success, so you'll only gain a minimal amount of rep in case of success, and loose significant amount for failing (what a let down!)
On the other hand, if you accept a hard quest, you have a high probability of failing, so you'd gain a lot of reputation if you succeed, and only lose a minimal amount if, as expected, you failed.
This seems to be a good idea, too.
Channel1 wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:31 pm
Jay_H wrote:I had thought of matching quests to dungeon levels, but wouldn't that return us to the problem of a leveled world?
I don't think so, but I could very well be wrong. My reasoning is that the quest giver is aware of your strength and sends you to an appropriate dungeon, this doesn't stop you from finding higher or lower level dungeons when exploring the wilderness or on maps, and also doesn't stop you from revisiting lower level dungeons.

Two side notes: The quests given out could be based on ranking in the faction instead of the player level, and that this whole idea might cause some issues in smaller kingdoms like Betony or Antiphyllos who only have 8 dungeons each.
I think, the quest giver should give you quests based on ranking, not level. It is not realistic for someone else to know your level, but it is perfectly appropriate for them to know your standing within the guild or your reputation. The first quests you are likely to come upon should be relatively easy and then gradually get more and more difficult. If you found the last quest from a given source to be challenging, you could take that as a good sign you should develop your character before you take the next one. Then, if the player finds out he has accepted more than he can handle at any given point, he can turn his attention to other things until he is strong enough to tackle the given task.

ADDITION (16 May 2019)
I just noticed spell-casting seems to be governed by character level.
All in all, I think it would be better if the probability of success, duration and magnitude of the spells had nothing to do with character level. I think I'll read about some alternative ways of doing this, think about them and then make a suggestion in this thread.
At this point, I aim to improve DFU by formulating ideas and working out some details of how things could work better.

Ommamar
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Re: Unleveled world

Post by Ommamar » Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:06 pm

The main thrust of Daggerfall and perhaps where it signs the brightest is the ability to make a wide variety of character builds. There are three components to it the vertical progression which is the leveling system, which seems to be the main thing this is designed to address.

But there is also a horizontal component that being the miscellaneous skills which can have a even wider effect on the "strength" of a character build. You could be a level 4 character who could be very good at casting spells, or at a particular weapon skill, a very fast runner, a very good climber, great at stealth, or picking pockets or opening locks. All these skills that don't effect your level do effect how well you can deal with situations that occur with in the game.

The third thing that has a big effect is what gear you have, if you have a good drop such as a steel or Elven Vampiric sword this will make you much more powerful then a build of the same level that doesn't have that. If you got the ebony dagger through the twelve question path you can go very far just using that in your off hand for things you can't hit with the low level sword. There is also a fairly easy way you can get magical items that will greatly strengthen your build through simple quests such as cast sleep or open , Travel around for 28 days to take care of the time requirement then since items price is based of effect you can get some powerful items at lower levels. There is also the matter of potions which can greatly strengthen your build and don't take much commitment in quite a few temples to get access to.

So I don't think that just making things powered based on level is the way to go, it might get you a part of the way to where you are trying to get. Daggerfall is very complex with a lot of different systems that can effect things so it would take more thought to "balance" then just messing with leveling interaction.

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princessbinas
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Re: Unleveled world

Post by princessbinas » Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:02 pm

We also have to account for quests that send you into the dungeons. I know for sure that I don't want to be sent into a deadly dungeon with a 9 to 10 day time limit to defeat a boss or find an item, especially when traveling to said dungeon takes 2 to 3 days in of itself. I would like to have time to recover from serious beatings that are given to me by the mobs (especially the skeletons, which are the worst offenders).

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biz633
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Re: Unleveled world

Post by biz633 » Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:48 pm

What if the main quest would level with you as normal, but the random encounters had a 1 or 2 level range higher and lower.
The Guild quest givers would give you an option to ask for an easy, moderate, or difficult job and the rewards as well as reputation would go up or down accordingly.

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