Extended and enhanced tutorial

Talk about the mods you'd like to see in Daggerfall Unity. Give mod creators some ideas!
User avatar
jayhova
Posts: 924
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:54 pm
Contact:

Extended and enhanced tutorial

Post by jayhova »

It's pretty clear that this site is made up of primarily squirrly old men who obsessively read their Daggerfall manual and then probably the help guide they bought after purchasing the game. It's also quite likely that many of us also played Arena (with its manual etc.) prior to its sequel Daggerfall. However, these things no longer exist for most new players. Virtually the only instruction players get is the tutorial. Again, even this assumed the player had access to the manual.

Here is an example of someone who's expectations for the game are way different than the typical Daggerfall user in 1996.


It might be a good idea to have an expanded tutorial to deal with the lack of a physical manual and altered expectations of how video games should work. The expanded tutorial would continue past privateers hold and explain concepts like world size, fast travel, Inns, shops, skill use, etc. Something like this

"Congratulations! You have escaped Privateers Hold. Would you like to continue with the tutorial"

"The small town of Gothway Garden is a short distance to the south, you may either walk there or use the fast travel system [%fasttravelkeybind] to travel there. This tutorial will continue once there or in some other city of your choosing"
Remember always 'What would Julian Do?'.

User avatar
pango
Posts: 3347
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:14 pm
Location: France
Contact:

Re: Extended and enhanced tutorial

Post by pango »

I think this one is related to Jay_H's "Beginner Guide to Daggerfall" mod proposal.

They're also interesting playthrus of people playing Daggerfall Unity for the first time with no prior knowledge of Daggerfall, and no external help: they pick a predefined character class half randomly, then wander around aimlessly, eventually try some shady stuff, get arrested by City Guards, and with reputation plummeting quickly become outcasts... Then raid graveyards, since that's the only dungeons on the map (apart from PH)... (*)

There's no wrong way to play a sandbox RPG, yet I'm not sure they'll come back for more. Assuming this can be improved (it's not clear all players know they're getting into a game with many mechanics and will like that; there's also the kind that answer "Start tutorial?" with "No" without a second thought), the best way to introduce people to the game, and maybe make the mechanics a little more apparent, will need some thinking...

*. While I watched a friend play Arena back in the day, both Arena and Daggerfall were already free to play when I started playing them myself; So I started playing without documentation either. I don't remember clearly my own beginnings with Daggerfall, but I do remember struggling with many mechanics like spells, or how to rank up in guilds; So while it was not as dramatic, I had a hard time progressing until I saw some streamers (Grimith runs, mainly) showcase mechanics and the kind of character builds you could do...
Mastodon: @pango@fosstodon.org
When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.
-- Charles Goodhart

User avatar
mikeprichard
Posts: 1037
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2017 6:49 pm

Re: Extended and enhanced tutorial

Post by mikeprichard »

Explaining Daggerfall's now "ancient" and thus unexpected gameplay mechanics to new and returning players alike in a streamlined and non-intrusive way is a critically important area of consideration - more than any other, it will determine how many people become truly engaged with DFU. Although I'm not necessarily against the idea of including tutorial elements in a mod as Jay_H had suggested in pango's link, we need to be aware that the target audience of new players will very likely not think to look for and download a mod just to try to understand the basic DFU gameplay aspects that are most confusing to modern gamers (many of which examples were mentioned by jayhova - how gold vs. letters of credit and wagon inventory management work; how fast travel works; how crime, factions, and reputation affect gameplay; how to use the current UI to do things like repair/steal/etc. in shops, etc.). Therefore and ideally, as much player feedback content (tutorials, tooltips, etc.) as is reasonably possible to implement should be incorporated within classic DFU.

Source: I'm an "old man" who played Daggerfall when it first released (though now 20 years later, I've forgotten pretty much everything about how it worked). :)

User avatar
jayhova
Posts: 924
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:54 pm
Contact:

Re: Extended and enhanced tutorial

Post by jayhova »

There are things in Daggerfall that exist for producing realism that are absolutely removed from later games. Gold having weight is one of them. In later games 'Oh you have 100,000 gold in your pack?' 'That's fine it does not weigh anything' If you play modern RPGs almost all of them ignore the weight of gold. Quite frankly I loved this about Daggerfall. But this needs to be explained to players that as they get more and more gold they will become weighed down. Wagons need to be explained. Banks, stores, interactions, letters of credit, magic, poison, disease. There is so much to love about Daggerfall (and so many little frustrations that hopefully will be addressed someday). What I love about Daggerfall is all the details and the verisimilitude. Of course you have to go to the bank. how else are you going to deal with sacks of gold?
Remember always 'What would Julian Do?'.

User avatar
Deepfighter
Posts: 138
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 10:24 am
Location: Iliac-Bay
Contact:

Re: Extended and enhanced tutorial

Post by Deepfighter »

Well, even though the Daggerfall Manual is still around and accessible (with all his flaws), there are other ways to learn about the greatness and especially characteristics of this game like Jormungandr83's Daggerfall FAQ or Daggerfall section at uesp.net.

What I mean, if the people would be looking into the game, they could find all the information they want. Maybe it's easier and more helpful instead of tooltips, to provide a README or an external list of links (like an overview page). There has to be some curiosity on the players side to find out mechanics and how to play the game. It's not that playing Daggerfall is a nuclear science or so...
Head of the German Daggerfall translation - www.daggerfalldeutsch.de
and German translator for The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim and Lore-Expert for The Elder Scrolls: Online

User avatar
Jay_H
Posts: 4062
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:54 am
Contact:

Re: Extended and enhanced tutorial

Post by Jay_H »

I think experience has shown thus far that people don't invest that kind of effort into learning the game :( If streamers with hundreds of followers don't spend 15 minutes reading about ideal character composition and gameplay mechanics, what'll we expect from the average player who downloads it on a whim?

User avatar
mikeprichard
Posts: 1037
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2017 6:49 pm

Re: Extended and enhanced tutorial

Post by mikeprichard »

Deepfighter does have a valid point that detailed documentation outside DFU itself should be clear and available, but as Jay_H mentioned, right or wrong, most players these days won't think to read a bulky manual or search for and download a separate tutorial mod just to understand fundamental game mechanics they've been trained for years should only work a certain way - and if they don't, they'll assume the game is broken/buggy/etc. Besides, I think the more in-game ways (tutorial messages/tooltips etc.) we have in DFU to explain the kinds of mechanics we've been discussing, the better for all, returning players and new players alike. I can confirm that since recently starting to come back to DFU 20 years after my most recent classic Daggerfall experience, relearning all of Daggerfall's quirks is sometimes a bit daunting without a little guidance to nudge me back on the right track.

BansheeXYZ
Posts: 555
Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2015 8:19 pm

Re: Extended and enhanced tutorial

Post by BansheeXYZ »

The way that Daggerfall presented its tutorial was kind of stupid. The first part of a game should be an experience, not a lesson. Who wants the first atmospheric dungeon experience to be full of game-pausing interruptions, reminders you're playing a game, and control tips you could've figured out yourself?

"Use mouse to look around... Click doors and loot piles to open them... Go into your inventory to equip weapons...". Unless this is your first game ever, it's just a drawn out summary of the controls menu, because the tutorial never tells you how to cast spells, how to swim, how to strafe, how to ready a weapon etc. Nor does it go in detail about levelup and promotion mechanics (you know, the things people are actually going to be confused about).

I wouldn't shed a tear to see it removed and replaced it with a nice readme. The first sentence would be "Hit Escape, go into the Controls menu, and familiarize yourself with all the controls and hotkeys." That effectively replaces 90% of the tutorial. The other 10% is trying to explain things that shouldn't have existed in the first place, like click-based movement and mode toggles. Maybe the only useful thing it says is to not sleep in town. But if the guards had been programmed to let you off with a warning the first time, you wouldn't have needed that either.

So I've read, the tutorial is even bugged in classic, and it stops short of all lessons. Sigh, Buggerfall...

User avatar
Jay_H
Posts: 4062
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:54 am
Contact:

Re: Extended and enhanced tutorial

Post by Jay_H »

Bethesda likely had no idea what would be an effective tutorial :lol: That's the danger of creating a whole new genre.

At the very least we could start making a storyboard about what a good tutorial would look like. Deus Ex and Turok had ones that I thought were stellar. If we move the PC from room to room, we can show all of Daggerfall's features at the player's pace.

One tutorial for all ignores the difficulty of people having different keybinds, but I suppose that's surmountable.

Room 1: Movement and looking. Learn WASD and how to look 360 degrees at the ceiling and floor. No impediment to exit, just a long hallway with a bend. Running should also be taught here.

Room 2: Crawling, jumping, and climbing. A lever at the top of a climbing section opens the exit door.

Room 3: Swimming. Provide an extremely heavy object to showcase the danger of weight when swimming. A lever in the water opens the exit door.

Room 4: Combat. A permanently paralyzed enemy could be in the center of the room. Once it is dead, the exit door opens.

Room 5: Archery. Shoot at a foe through a small archway. When the foe is dead or the arrows are depleted, the exit door opens.

Room 6: Spellcasting. This could be optional, in case the PC is not a spellcaster.

Room 7: Magic items. A trinket with an enchantment to use (Firestorm, Force Bolt, Far Silence) could be provided. Once it is used, the door opens.

Room 8: Diseases. The PC could be hit with a disease upon touching a lever. A priest could be nearby to cure it.

Room 9: Shops. Sell to the merchant and buy from the shelves.

Room 10: Rest. This could probably go sooner, but I couldn't decide a good place for it.

What am I missing? How would we explain the important things like leveling up and promotion in memorable ways?

BansheeXYZ
Posts: 555
Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2015 8:19 pm

Re: Extended and enhanced tutorial

Post by BansheeXYZ »

Jay_H wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:31 amBethesda likely had no idea what would be an effective tutorial
If a game is complex enough to require one (and I don't think most games are), the most effective method is to have it on the main menu as its own mode with its own levels. You mentioned Turok, and that's one example of a game where "Start Game" and "Training" are different play modes per the menu. Otherwise, the game introduces you as Mr Badass Warrior on a dangerous mission to save the world, who may also need a lesson in how to open doors and kill rats.

I'm not necessarily suggesting DFU do this as the title text is baked in graphically. But moving the tutorial to the console might be a good solution.

Post Reply