Guilds & Factions of Daggerfall (Lokkrin’s mega-post)

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Lokkrin Zhataros
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Guilds & Factions of Daggerfall (Lokkrin’s mega-post)

Post by Lokkrin Zhataros » Fri Dec 06, 2019 8:36 am

Edit 1: I went a bit overboard in a few spots. Adjustments were made.
Edit 2: I added a list of sections at the beginning for easier navigation.

Greetings Daggerfall Unity Community!

This is my first big post on this forum and hopefully something useful. Just a big Daggerfall fan with some extensive notes on modding ideas, only recently had the time and opportunity to present them here. I am not a modder/programmer at the moment so basic interactions, discussions and issue reporting in the forum will probably be the extant of my presence here. But with that said, I hope this topic can give modders and people in this community some more inspiration with factions in Daggerfall. Guilds and factions are an important part of this game and there is so much that can be done with them. Whether creating new factions or expanding on existing ones, the possibilities are near endless (maybe exaggerating a little). Not everything needs to be particularly “lore friendly” either. There are a few ideas and suggestions I am presenting here on this thread and hope to add and expand on it much more. This is mostly here to keep my notes of this large topic in one place for me to keep track of and more easily manage. It will always be a work in progress. Please take anything you see in this thread and do with it as you wish, form you own ideas and/or implement them into mods as you see fit.

Of course if anyone has thoughts, suggestions, ideas or criticisms of anything in this topic you are more than welcome to do so!

The following topic is divided into individual subjects. I was hoping to put each subject within it's own "spoiler" section for easier reading and navigation but it bugs out a little. I'm guessing only one spoiler per post. Subject titles that say [incomplete] will generally mean it has only a short, very basic description of the subject and needs to be worked on/expanded upon a lot more.

Enjoy!

List of sections:

1 Main Questlines for Guilds and Factions
2 Finding Guild Members Randomly In Wilderness And Dungeons[incomplete]
3 Fees or Offerings for Guilds
5 More Factions
6 Make some classic Daggerfall non-joinable factions joinable [incomplete]
7 Darker Underworld [incomplete]
8 Warring Factions [incomplete]
9 Can There Be Too Many Factions? – a discussion [incomplete]

Guilds/Factions: Unless otherwise stated, when it says guilds and factions it is only referring to joinable ones, not the many general (non-joinable) factions like Peasants, Merchants, Nobles, etc.

Main Questlines for Guilds and Factions

All guilds and factions could have a their own unique, semi-linear main-questline similar to later Elder Scrolls games. They would be separate from the usual everyday randomly-generated missions. Larger quests like this can help give the faction more depth, story and meaning while giving players a nice break from the usual grindy quest mechanics. This concept could easily be implemented into many additional side-quests as well including guilds/factions added by mods.

Extensive Quests: These missions, should you choose to except them, are more challenging than regular quests and can take longer to complete with many stages. Each stage could have you talking to multiple people and doing multiple tasks. Each task within a stage will also have a timed deadline to complete.

Questline Player Choices/Consequences: Have the player make tough and meaningful decisions throughout the guild/faction main-quest that could ultimately change the outcome of the various stages and/or ending drastically.

Questline Fit Into TES World: Main-questlines written for the default guilds/factions (not necessarily guilds/factions added by mods) should at least make sense within the Elder Scrolls universe and be mostly true to existing lore. Not saying that everything needs to be canon.

Quests Should Be Meaningful: Main-quest stories should strive to be meaningful, impactful and rewarding to the player in some way. It should make it feel satisfying for joining that particular guild or faction.

Unique Themes: Each guild/faction questline should be unique and themed with the guild/faction itself. History/lore, conflicting factions, political/social issues, acquiring and/or using special artifacts, entering a plane of existence to do something, etc. can all be theme ideas that fit into a quest.

Note: Maybe I’m being overly cautious in saying this, but as far as political/social issues go I would recommend staying within the context of the Elder Scrolls fantasy universe, not real-life junk (if you know what I mean😉).

Quest Requirements: The main-quests themselves and certain stages of these quests can only be given to a player of sufficient rank and skill. This encourages the player to continue completing regular tasks/missions and leveling their character in order to gain reputation/ranks and become trusted enough to complete the guild/faction main-questline. If a player attempts to get the quest or quest stage before they are ready they will be met with a message saying they are not ready for the assignment.

Unique Skill/Attribute Requirements: Main-quest could have skill and attribute requirements based on the guild/faction (e.g. Mages Guild should have a magic-based skill/attribute requirements).

Unique Quest-giver NPC: There should be a separate unique quest-giver NPC in each guild/faction primarily for the main-quests.

Main-Quest Optional: The main questline should remain entirely optional until activated for the first time. When the player interacts with the main-quest giver with the required skill/attributes acquired it should allow the player the option to be involved in the quest with a Yes/No prompt. If No, the player will get a message asking the player to come back later if the player reconsiders. If yes, you are locked into the first stage of the quest that will have a time limit to complete.

Player Recommendations: These main quests would be more demanding of the player than your average quest. The player will be fighting stronger enemies and will be stuck in a dungeon or two or other location that has lots of enemies/traps/puzzles for a while. The player should make sure they are well equipped and prepared for such a mission. Since the various tasks are timed, players also need to make sure that period of time is freed up in order to focus on a particular mission stage alone for a while. So if a player plans on do a mission stage they shouldn’t take on any other quests.

Finding Guild Members Randomly In Wilderness And Dungeons[incomplete]

This idea originated from Jay_H’s General Thread. So credit goes to him for this.

The concept of meeting random guild members outside of guild halls in the wilderness or dungeons and being able to interact with them in some way. Maybe a quest can be given or a service provided. More on this can be added later.

Fees or Offerings for Guilds

The concept that guilds require more from the player than just endless work and some skill.

Guild Rank Offerings: Before fully gaining a rank in a guild you must “purchase” that rank with specific item offerings (not gold!) depending on what that guild requires. Each rank should be increasingly more demanding of items and more rewarding than the previous. Doing quests as well as providing useful items/donating to the guild can make the player feel like they've truly earned that rank. It can also give numerous “trash” items such as Holy Tomes, Books, etc. an actual purpose for existing in the game and a reason to collect them. It may even give modders an opportunity to create new “guild specific” items to be found in the world and donated. -- I may need to think this through more, but I like this idea much better than the Guild Fees.

Guild Fee: A simple fee that is required of the player if desires to maintain reputation with the guild without doing quests. If the player has neglected doing quests or paying fees to the guild for a length of time they may lose reputation and will have the option of gaining it back by paying a substantial fee, the amount of which is based on the number of points of reputation that the player has lost and wants to regain.

More Factions

This is where the real creativity comes in! There are so many possibilities with additional factions and guilds. They don’t even have to be “lore friendly”. There also doesn’t necessarily need to be any skill requirements. Just a group to join with special quests and services. I don’t have a lot of Ideas particularly myself. We have two awesome guilds added by mods – The Cartographers Guild in Jay_H's Quest Pack #1 and the Archeologists Guild by Hazelnut and Jay_H !!!

Shady Guild of Misfits: Until I come up with a better name it will be called “Shady Guild”. Why not have a sort of odd guild that does unique jobs for the people of Illiac Bay that no other guild or faction are willing to take on. Jobs that are too dubious for the Fighters/Mages Guilds, Knightly Orders or Temples and not worth the bother for the Thieves Guild or Dark Brotherhood. It may seem boring but there could be a lot of creativity with this. Plenty of humor can be put into these quests. Certain quests could make some sense but are still legally/morally questionable while other quests could have the player scratching there head wondering what’s going on, what exactly they are doing, why and for whom.

Quest Idea - Lazy/Scared Guild Member: There is a member of a particular guild that was sent on a quest but doesn’t actually want to do the mission and asks the player to do it for them while the guild member takes all the credit for it. Maybe to add a bit of player choices/consequences once the player completes the mission they could choose to either keep it a secret or tell the guild about the incident. Both choices would need equal reward/consequences so the player has a reason for picking one over the other.

Dungeon Guild: A guild only found in certain dungeons with unique quests and services. Could make a unique dungeon location acting as a guild hall of sorts. Should be small and more easily navigate-able than your average dungeon. A player would have to discover this guild in some special way and travel somewhere outside populated areas to get to the dungeon in order to join the guild. Once joined, a player will always need to access the guild within these unique dungeons in order to do quests and get services. I haven’t thought of an actual purpose or theme for the guild yet. It’s in a dungeon away from populated areas, so could be secretive underworld/crime related? Necromancy?

Make some classic Daggerfall non-joinable factions joinable [incomplete]

There are a few factions that are not joinable in Daggerfall and some are completely non-interactable/non-existent in the world residing only within the games code. Can we give some life and purpose to these factions by making them joinable? Could add quests, guild halls/locations, unique services and just all around personality.

Here is a list of factions in the game that are non-joinable:

Merchants
Vampire Bloodlines
Witch Covens

More work is needed in this section. I need to research more on these factions to get familiar with them and gather ideas for implementation.

Darker Underworld [incomplete]

This might be a bad idea - The Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood can sometimes feel generic. Yes you are steeling or assassinating but it doesn’t feel all that much different than regular quests from other guilds. My proposal is to make some of the quests darker in tone and maybe more sadistic in nature. Have realistic consequences and make the player feel a bit scuzzy for their deeds (or rather, misdeeds). This subject can be expanded on more in the future.

Warring Factions [incomplete]

Factions that have conflicting differences and are either simply in disagreement or hostile and at war with each other. This can certainly add some depth and interesting story plot ideas. Could be adding factions to Daggerfall that are in conflict with each other or making additional quests for existing factions that give the illusion that they are at war with another faction. Maybe a mix of both. Obviously would not be canonical but could maybe blend in with the TES universe a little. Could expand on this more. I’m really not sure what else to do here at the moment.

Can There Be Too Many Factions? – a discussion [incomplete]

Yes and no. At least within a single playthrough you could join more factions than you have time to complete quests for. In the default game you have the Fighters Guild, Mages Guild, Thieves Guild, Dark Brotherhood, A Knightly Order, A Temple you can join all in one playthrough.


--To Be Continued--
Last edited by Lokkrin Zhataros on Thu Jan 02, 2020 6:16 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Guilds & Factions of Daggerfall (Lokkrin’s mega-post)

Post by jayhova » Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:21 am

My thought on guild fees is that they should be handled like temple donations. To an extent they should keep your reputation with the guild up if you are not performing quests. Quests bring the guild both money and reputation and they give you a cut. If you are just in a guild as a social club they might after some time start dropping hints that you should keep up with your dues if you are not a working member. Of course, once you become grand poobah you are fine. You can only improve your rep with the guild and its members, you can't advance.

My thought is that after a while your reputation in a guild begins to fall. When it does you can either pay your back dues or do quests and raise you reputation normally. if you do nothing the guild will withhold services starting with the highest. Perhaps the guild member will say something like "My services are reserved for dues-paying/working guild members, not dead beats." Donations to the guild will never earn you a promotion but large donations will improve your standing with other guild members.
Last edited by jayhova on Fri Dec 20, 2019 5:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Lokkrin Zhataros
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Re: Guilds & Factions of Daggerfall (Lokkrin’s mega-post)

Post by Lokkrin Zhataros » Thu Dec 19, 2019 6:25 pm

jayhova wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:21 am
My thought on guild fees is that they should be handled like temple donations. To an extent they should keep your reputation with the guild up if you are not performing quests. Quests bring the guild both money and reputation and they give you a cut. If you are just in a guild as a social club they might after some time start dropping hints that you should keep up with your dues if you are not a working member. Of course, once you become grand poobah you are fine. You can only improve your rep with the guild and its members, you can't advance.

My thought is that after a while your reputation in a guild begins to fall. When it does you can either pay your back dues or do quests and raise you reputation normally. if you do nothing the guild will withhold services starting with the highest. Perhaps the guild member will say something like "My services are reserved for dues-paying/working guild members, not dead beats." Donations to the guild will never earn you a promotion but large donations will improve you standing with other guild members.
I both agree and disagree. I'm liking your idea of having guild fees if you aren't doing quests. You still have access to guild services (at least the ones your rank in qualified for) but since you're not doing work for them you should pay a fee in order to keep your reputation and rank. This would help the you if you couldn't do quests for a particular guild for a longer period of time. If you lose enough rep, you lose rank and depending on the rank lost, you may lose access to certain services provided at that rank.

I disagree that every time you pay a guild fee that your reputation should continue to go up. This would mean that you could eventually end up with max rep but not max rank. What would be the purpose? The entire function of gaining reputation in a guild is to gain rank and get access to more services and quests. Guild rep and rank kinda go hand-in-hand. Guild fees should only maintain your status with the guild not increase your standing with them. It's only you doing work for them that earns you reputation and rank.

I never thought of a guild being a "social club" and not sure what to think about it. I always thought of them as very serious, get down to business type groups, not necessarily social. Mechanically speaking, there are no social aspects to guilds at all. You do work for them and use the services, that's it. The entire purpose of being a member of a guild in this game is to continue to increase rep and rank. If you aren't able to do work for them for a while, paying a guild fee makes sense. But why would a you deliberately ignore a guild indefinitely? That seems counter intuitive.

These are just my thoughts and opinions.
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Re: Guilds & Factions of Daggerfall (Lokkrin’s mega-post)

Post by jayhova » Fri Dec 20, 2019 6:14 pm

Lokkrin Zhataros wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 6:25 pm

I disagree that every time you pay a guild fee that your reputation should continue to go up. This would mean that you could eventually end up with max rep but not max rank. What would be the purpose? The entire function of gaining reputation in a guild is to gain rank and get access to more services and quests. Guild rep and rank kinda go hand-in-hand. Guild fees should only maintain your status with the guild not increase your standing with them. It's only you doing work for them that earns you reputation and rank.
When I say your reputation goes up I mean only that your reputation with guild members goes up. You do not rise in rank. I'm not sure you can even do this with the system as it sits. Basically what I am saying is even if your rank does not increase you are still well thought of by members of the guild and their associates. That is to say, if you give large donations to a knightly order you might be looked on favorably by the royal family or that region as though you were a ranking knight. This would be difficult to keep up because were you to stop giving money your reputation would tend to decay back down to your actual rank or below if you are not a working knight. It might be a good idea to have a sort of floor where your past service holds you up. You might not ever for instance drop more than 2 or 3 ranks when you retire.
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Re: Guilds & Factions of Daggerfall (Lokkrin’s mega-post)

Post by Lokkrin Zhataros » Sun Dec 29, 2019 12:41 am

jayhova wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 6:14 pm
Lokkrin Zhataros wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 6:25 pm

I disagree that every time you pay a guild fee that your reputation should continue to go up. This would mean that you could eventually end up with max rep but not max rank. What would be the purpose? The entire function of gaining reputation in a guild is to gain rank and get access to more services and quests. Guild rep and rank kinda go hand-in-hand. Guild fees should only maintain your status with the guild not increase your standing with them. It's only you doing work for them that earns you reputation and rank.
When I say your reputation goes up I mean only that your reputation with guild members goes up. You do not rise in rank. I'm not sure you can even do this with the system as it sits. Basically what I am saying is even if your rank does not increase you are still well thought of by members of the guild and their associates. That is to say, if you give large donations to a knightly order you might be looked on favorably by the royal family or that region as though you were a ranking knight. This would be difficult to keep up because were you to stop giving money your reputation would tend to decay back down to your actual rank or below if you are not a working knight. It might be a good idea to have a sort of floor where your past service holds you up. You might not ever for instance drop more than 2 or 3 ranks when you retire.
So I'm liking your idea here. It's different than what I expected other suggestions were presenting.

So basically have a monthly guild fee for when a player is not doing quests for the guild(s) in order to maintain guild reputation. The player will not gain ranks or reputation with the guild, but may gain guild member reputation. If you don't do quests or pay the fee, you will eventually lose reputation and rank. When you lose ranks you may lose privileges various services. If you lose reputation from not paying the fee, you can gain it back by paying back all dues or doing quests and gain rep slowly that way. If the player is of sufficient rank they won't need to pay any guild fees.

I kinda like the idea and will rewrite the "guild fee" section of my post to fit this!
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Re: Guilds & Factions of Daggerfall (Lokkrin’s mega-post)

Post by jayhova » Sun Dec 29, 2019 4:18 am

I've noticed that reputation decays at a rate anyway. If you changed the algorithm by which it decayed it could not decay at all if the player has done a quest within a set number of days or made an equivalent donation. Donations can restore points lost from inactivity but never give you more than you have lost. You can for instance right now have a reputation with your guild of 100 without gaining ranks. If you ignore that guild for a while your reputation may slip down to 90. My thought is that you could then give money to bring it back up rather than do a quest.
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Re: Guilds & Factions of Daggerfall (Lokkrin’s mega-post)

Post by Lokkrin Zhataros » Sun Dec 29, 2019 4:38 am

Yes I agree. But maybe the donation should raise your rep back up by 5 points per donation and maybe restrict to 1 donation per month? That may be too restrictive. But my thinking is that lets say you were away from that guild for quite a while and your rep went from 100 down to 40, making 1 donation to raise it to 100 or making multiple donations at once seems a little too forgiving. What do you think?
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Re: Guilds & Factions of Daggerfall (Lokkrin’s mega-post)

Post by jayhova » Sun Dec 29, 2019 5:50 pm

Possibly it becomes increasingly hard to raise your rep. Let's say the cost doubles for every 10 points. So rep 1-10 costs 1 gold to raise your reputation back up 1 point, 11-20 2 gold, 21-30 4 gold, 31-40 8 gold, 41-50 16 gold, 51-60 32 gold, 61-70 64 gold, 71-80 128 gold, 81-90 256 gold, and 512 gold per point after that.

In the above example where our guy had a rep of 100 but let it slip down to 90, he could then buy it back up for 10x512=5120 gold. The number of donations would be irrelevant.
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Re: Guilds & Factions of Daggerfall (Lokkrin’s mega-post)

Post by Lokkrin Zhataros » Mon Dec 30, 2019 9:35 pm

jayhova wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 5:50 pm
Possibly it becomes increasingly hard to raise your rep. Let's say the cost doubles for every 10 points. So rep 1-10 costs 1 gold to raise your reputation back up 1 point, 11-20 2 gold, 21-30 4 gold, 31-40 8 gold, 41-50 16 gold, 51-60 32 gold, 61-70 64 gold, 71-80 128 gold, 81-90 256 gold, and 512 gold per point after that.

In the above example where our guy had a rep of 100 but let it slip down to 90, he could then buy it back up for 10x512=5120 gold. The number of donations would be irrelevant.
Edit: I made a few edits to my post.

Hmm, I still have to think about this. Maybe I'm misunderstanding something here, but it seems you are thinking more along the lines of a guild payment than a monthly fee. I don't think I like this since it feels weird that all I would need to do is throw a ton of gold at a guild to get ALL my rep back that I lost. Gold is too easy to get in this game, this wouldn't feel like a penalty.

As far as a monthly fee: Money in this game is ridiculous, it wouldn't be much of a penalty in late game when you have 3+ million gold, of course economy balancing mods would take care of that. Otherwise the fees would need to be into the 100s of thousands. To me there should be some penalty other than the fee itself in this case. Like I presented earlier, if you lost rep with a guild you can gain it back slowly by paying a substantial fee once a month and raise it by 5 points per fee/month. The idea would be to encourage you to do work/quests for them again to raise rep faster since the number of quests you do for them per month is unlimited. So if you want to stay in the guild, do work or keep up with your monthly dues. If you are at 100 rep with guild and then left for 6 months you shouldn't be able to buy all your rep back for even 300k gold all at once. Any thoughts?
Last edited by Lokkrin Zhataros on Tue Dec 31, 2019 12:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Guilds & Factions of Daggerfall (Lokkrin’s mega-post)

Post by jayhova » Tue Dec 31, 2019 12:38 am

Well of course toward the end of the game you are enormously wealthy. I'm not thinking of it as a penalty but more like the guild expecting you to pull your weight. Bear in mind that you can always do a quest and that will likely get you more money. It's more like a reminder, you're rich and a guild member, perhaps you should be helping your fellows out.
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