Guilds & Factions of Daggerfall (Lokkrin’s mega-post)

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Lokkrin Zhataros
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Re: Guilds & Factions of Daggerfall (Lokkrin’s mega-post)

Post by Lokkrin Zhataros » Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:42 am

jayhova wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 12:38 am
Well of course toward the end of the game you are enormously wealthy. I'm not thinking of it as a penalty but more like the guild expecting you to pull your weight. Bear in mind that you can always do a quest and that will likely get you more money. It's more like a reminder, you're rich and a guild member, perhaps you should be helping your fellows out.
Okay, but what is wrong with a penalty? Penalties are good when executed the right way. Maybe I'm misunderstanding something here again, but I'm not thinking of a simple illusion of a guild fee, that's boring and useless, but rather something that adds actual meaning and purpose to gameplay. I hate cheap "illusions" for the sake of a little "realism". My only concern before was that the idea of all guilds having a required constant monthly fee while doing quests for them would be too much considering the number of guilds and timed quests a player can have activated all at once. It could become too overwhelming and unpractical. But you were suggesting that there should be a fee simply if the player chooses to ignore a guild for some time like several months or so without doing quests for them but still want to keep rep up or regain any lost rep. This I agree with.

But the entire implied purpose of the player being a member of a guild in this game in the first place is to do work for them while earning their trust and getting access to services. "Pulling your weight" is to do work, not throw money around. This is vital for both gameplay and character progress. So really, why would you ignore a guild for any length of time anyway unless you are exploring/traveling around on your own or maybe concentrating on the main quest or simply wish to abandon a guild for good. Otherwise it's simply counter intuitive to ignore a guild for long. To me it should be a difficult and meaningful decision to ignore any guild. Based on some of your suggestions, this is why I think there still needs to be a penalty of sorts to offset this unusual behavior.

Based on what we previously discussed this is what I think should be the general process:

1-join a guild
2-do quests to gain rep and rank
3-if failed a quest you lose rep and possibly rank
4-do additional quests to gain lost rep/rank
5-ignore guild for period of time while paying a set monthly fee in place of doing quests to maintain rep/rank
6-if monthly fee is ignored you eventually lose rep/rank
7-to gain back lost rep/rank from ignoring guild and fees you have 2 options
a-start paying a monthly fee to raise rep back to where you were by 5 points per fee/month
--maybe this becomes increasingly expensive per point of rep that you are trying to gain back, like previously suggested.
b-start doing quests for them again to raise rep much faster.
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jayhova
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Re: Guilds & Factions of Daggerfall (Lokkrin’s mega-post)

Post by jayhova » Thu Jan 02, 2020 3:59 pm

Lokkrin Zhataros wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:42 am
Okay, but what is wrong with a penalty?
Simple real guilds are not in the business of penalizing members. If you don't pay your dues via either questing (which earns the guild both reputation and money) or dues if you are not an active member you could lose access to guild privileges. If the guild had rules and you somehow broke those rules you might be due a penalty in the form of a fine, quest, reputation loss or any combination. Now I could see situations where the player might violate the bylaws of the guild and be penalized but not on an ongoing basis.
Remember always 'What would Julian Do?'.
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Lokkrin Zhataros
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Re: Guilds & Factions of Daggerfall (Lokkrin’s mega-post)

Post by Lokkrin Zhataros » Thu Jan 02, 2020 6:06 pm

Well, I suppose you are right and I'm the idiot here. I guess I was thinking on a more mechanical/character level rather than lore/realism. So maybe just a simple mod that allows "Temple-like-fees" to be added to all guilds/factions just like you were saying, is the best route. I will let modders make this choice, obviously.

As for me personally, for my playstyle, I would probably just forget the guild fee in my game altogether, since in my opinion, it doesn't serve an important/useful function for the character. It's just an annoyance that mostly belongs in the Temples. Donations make sense in Temples. I would rather do quests for guilds to maintain or regain my reputation, so keeping it vanilla.

Like I suggested in the main topic, I would much rather have a mod that allows unique guild "offerings" of special items for ranking up. If a player wants to rank up in a guild they need to donate a certain amount of items to get the rank. Plenty of games have this, in different ways of course. In my opinion, this function serves an actual purpose for the character and makes ranking up feel more rewarding.

I am removing/changing my comments on guild fees from the main topic post for now.
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Re: Guilds & Factions of Daggerfall (Lokkrin’s mega-post)

Post by jayhova » Thu Jan 02, 2020 9:52 pm

There are kinda two ways to think about these things. As a pencil and paper roleplayer, I tend to think along the lines of reality simulator which is what an RPG is. The Todd Howards of the world tend to think of things in the form of a realistic video game. All the games since Daggerfall have moved in this direction of video game and less toward the RPG simulator that Daggerfall was trying to be. It's just easier for me because as a roleplayer I immediately think 'How could this be made to better resemble real life for a better roleplay experience?'. If you approach things from a video game angle the question is how can we make this a better, more challenging, video game with fewer things that don't add to play.

Here is an example: Loitering. There are a couple of ways to look at loitering and the 3-hour limit. The typical video game way of looking at it is 'this is an obnoxious game mechanic that isn't fun, let's get rid of it as it doesn't do anything for play.' The other (my) way is If you were a real person in a real place and stood 3 hours in one spot the cops would tell you to move on or arrest you for vagrancy. This makes me think that the best way to handle loitering would be to not allow players to repeatedly loiter in the same location. You would have to move somewhere else and wait. I would also allow extended loitering at any inn where you purchased a drink (you'd have to buy at least one drink every three hours) or if you had a room there or if your character could rent a room for free. I would also allow unlimited loitering in any location where a quest was starting in less than 24 hours.

The reason is that this would be realistic. Perhaps not convenient to the player but realistic. I would also apply similar rules to sleeping in cities etc. To trigger an arrest scenario you would need to be actually spotted by someone who cares (a virtual certainty in a big city) before the guards would be summoned. If you can find a place to sleep that is hidden, you'd be fine.
Remember always 'What would Julian Do?'.
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Lokkrin Zhataros
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Re: Guilds & Factions of Daggerfall (Lokkrin’s mega-post)

Post by Lokkrin Zhataros » Sat Jan 04, 2020 4:04 am

D
Last edited by Lokkrin Zhataros on Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Lokkrin Zhataros
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Re: Guilds & Factions of Daggerfall (Lokkrin’s mega-post)

Post by Lokkrin Zhataros » Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:41 am

If anyone else has any thoughts and ideas about Guilds/Factions please feel free to comment! :)
Last edited by Lokkrin Zhataros on Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Guilds & Factions of Daggerfall (Lokkrin's mega-post)

Post by hannafamilycomputer » Wed Feb 05, 2020 1:35 am

The fighter's guild and knightly faction quests are only slighty different. Knightly factions are related to the regions, right?

Here is an example region: https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Glenpoint

As you can see, this region has a few stats. There is a stat for allies/enimes (this region has none), and a power stat. What if regions could go to 'war' with each other, giving the knightly order's war-related quest. (The fighter's guild is a tamirel wide organization, and does not want to involve itself in such conflicts)

Process:
1:Most regions don't have allies/eniemes (none of the knightly orders have them), so upon new game, they could be randomly generated.
2:At the start of every new month, a die is rolled for each faction.
3:If the die is a certain number and that faction's power stat is greater than one of their enimes' power stats, that country declares war.
4: Once war is declared, those 2 factions will each generate a list of locations in their provence based on their power stat. (Maybe 1 location for 5 power?)
5: When talking to a knightly order quest giver, instead of reciving a normal quest list, you will see a list of the other countries' locations. Clicking on one will give you a pop-up, saying "attack location?".
6: This will create a quest which simply spawns a random number of enimies outside that location. (Kinda like what ive seen with other's using warm ashes) Once you say 80% of the eniemies, you'll get a 'the enemy retreats' message and that location is removed from the list, and the nations power decreases by 1.
7: Once 75% of all locations have been removed from the list, the war ends, and you get a letter of credit for being a war-hero.

Other add-on ideas:
Upon winning a war, the winning sides nation's allies power is increased by 5, for 'helping'. This can set off other wars, since the illiac bay is always at war. (See last idea)

Nation's can randomly gain/lose power, making conflicts happen more often.

Upon reaching an enemy location, you get 1 pacified warrior to spawn next to you per rank in the knightly order.

Other war-realated quest's for knightly orders. (Treaties, spies, traitors!)

Rumors include wars that are actually happening. (Using background war quest, rumors could show up while it's running)

Once a war has started, an invisable 'war quest' will start, and will have a timer. Once the timer reaches 0, one location will be removed from the list. A new timer will start. That way, you can just sit the war out as it rages around you.

You can visit locations in your country, and you can find peaceful soldiers there if it is a listed location. If you attack them, you're going to jail, and getting kicked out of the knightly order, you traitor!

Wars can no longer start after the main quest is completed, because of the warp in the west.

Obvious flaws
Wars don't happen randomly in real life, so it's unrealistic.

Not every region has a knightly order.

You won't be able to tell whose side the soldier's are on, unless you use a mod or make them different enemy types.

Cybiades.

Repeative.

Lot's of work and randomness. (Well, this is daggerfall)

Benefit's to this process
From what I've seen, this may be possible with the existing quest system. (Iffy parts- alternate quest lists, ability to change region's stats)

Makes the illiac bay actually have all the fighting around you. (Though barely visable)

Something actually changes when you complete the main quest.


Just an thought out idea.

hannafamilycomputer
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Re: Guilds & Factions of Daggerfall (Lokkrin’s mega-post)

Post by hannafamilycomputer » Sat Jun 06, 2020 4:21 pm

Lokkrin Zhataros wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:41 am
... please feel free to comment.

NOT about Guild Fees!
Sorry.

According to this site, the devs if the game had the same ideas as the ones above, but it was cut. (Like a million other things)


https://tcrf.net/Proto:The_Elder_Scrol ... o#N0000002
Scroll down a little bit.


Here's the mages guild text they found in the October 1995 demo:
New initiates are required to pay 500 gold
on the day they are accepted. If they devote
themselves to the guild and work towards its
betterment, that is all they have to pay.
Less energetic members are required to pay
50 gold a year.

New initiates are chosen based primarily on
their talents, though persons with particularly
poor reputations amongst scholars are seldom
invited to join.

They are our guards, infantry, and escorts.
Few are spellcasters themselves, but all are
dedicated to our protection and advancement,
and are, of course, given priveleges within
the guild according to rank in the order.

We are the official association of spellcasters,
scholars, and academics of Tamriel.

Dues
Requirements
Order of the Lamp
The Mages Guild
Last Entry
This seems very reasonable, though it prevents early players from joining a guild instantly. However, this could be a good thing, since guilds are higher up in society (Or seems logical they would be, excluding the theives and dark brotherhood.) If there wasn't an entry [besides mininmum skills], then why would all the random townspeople be warriors?

However, guild fees should only apply to guilds that you come to in order to learn something. So if fees were to be implemented, I would say that the only ones you woukd pay to join would be the mages and fighters guilds. (Joining knightly orders is like pledging service to a country/ruler, and joining temples is serving a divine, and you could donate gold to them anytime.)

Not that I think adding guild fees is important. I just found this while bored, and remembered it had been discussed here. Sorry for the necro.

Lokkrin Zhataros
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Re: Guilds & Factions of Daggerfall (Lokkrin’s mega-post)

Post by Lokkrin Zhataros » Mon Jun 08, 2020 12:55 am

Hey there! Lol, it’s been a while since I did anything with this topic. Didn’t think there was much interest in my silly ramblings here so I kind-of left it. My ideas in the main post are poor and over-written and probably not helpful for the topics it covers. Also, there doesn’t seem to be much interest in modding for Guilds/Factions anyway (which is odd to me since this is the biggest/most important part of gameplay) aside from Archeologist and Prostitute factions.

No worries talking about guild fees, or anything else! At the time of my last post here the topic seemed to get a bit argumentative, was mostly my fault, so I got tired of talking about it and left a silly, rude response. Sorry about that.

Anyone, feel free to discuss anything here!

On topic: It’s interesting the many things that were cut from the original game. I’ve seen that page about the Demo before. I like this idea of “Guild Membership Fee.” 500 gold seems pretty reasonable. It gives the player a challenge at the beginning of the game in getting enough gold to join a guild. I always felt that joining a guild is reward in itself, so why not make it a little work to get there. Like you said, I agree it should be for Fighters and Mages guilds only. Don’t know what to think about the ‘50 gold a year’ for lack of guild work.
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