Mods for rebalancing the weapon types?

Talk about the mods or features you'd like to see in Daggerfall Unity. Give mod creators some ideas!
ArtemisTheGreat
Posts: 1
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:33 pm

Mods for rebalancing the weapon types?

Post by ArtemisTheGreat » Fri Dec 13, 2019 2:28 pm

In Vanilla DF the weapon balance is all out of wack. Long blades is far and away the best option for 99% of the game, Shortbows are literally useless compared to Longbows, the different swords are essentially the same except that the Dai-Katana and Katana are just arbitrarily better than all the other options.

I would propose a change in how the weapons are differentiated mechanically (and visually since they all look the bloody same in first person). The changes would be to promote the use of different weapons for different situations or playstyles instead of having a certain weapon class be a straight upgrade from another. (Wakazashi is just a better Tanto, there's barely any reason to use blunt weapons except for warhammers, bastard swords and sabers are relatively useless, staffs hardly even feel like a valid choice) For instance daggers could be optimized for sneaky backstabs while the short sword is more of a face to face weapon and the tanto is perfect for cutting purses but the wakazashi is best at cutting important bodyparts. Just little invisible stat boosts to help each weapon type feel valuable. Also perhaps a general speed bonus for one handed weapons, doubly so for short blades.

User avatar
Jay_H
Posts: 3151
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:54 am

Re: Mods for rebalancing the weapon types?

Post by Jay_H » Fri Dec 13, 2019 3:17 pm

Welcome to the forums :)

I'll move this into Mods & Features General. This forum's used for hands-on mod construction help, instead.
Come join Lysandus' Tomb, a Daggerfall Unity fan Discord.
See the Daggerfall Unity Wiki on the UESP.

User avatar
Ralzar
Posts: 991
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:11 pm
Location: Norway

Re: Mods for rebalancing the weapon types?

Post by Ralzar » Fri Dec 13, 2019 3:47 pm

There has been several weapons overhaul threads I think, but we are currently lacking some mod access to really get that going.
You have l3lessed who is working on a combat overhaul mod:

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2533

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=2508
My released mods

"I feel like Ralzar specifically wrote those mods for me and then said "Use them". Just so he could watch me die more."
-FuzzyBeanPlays

DaveCastle
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:01 pm
Location: Hungary

Re: Mods for rebalancing the weapon types?

Post by DaveCastle » Fri Dec 13, 2019 4:12 pm

My quick two cents as a HEMA practitioner, and I can expand later:

Blunt weapons should have a relatively low attack speed, a higher minimum damage but a lower max damage - there weren't many macefighting manuscripts written in the middle ages because these weapons are really not built around finesse. There's no edge alignment, it hurts when it hits you either way. That could explain the more consistent damage rolls but generally lower dps.
Swords should get the brunt of the bonus damage from agility as well as the long blade skill, and much less from strength. This goes for the two-handed swords as well, them claymores are beasts and of course they're harder to swing around, but they're not nearly as heavy as people generally think (~2 or 3 kg). The wildly varied damage range of swords could be explained by the occasional glancing blows, although a skilled swordsman would get the edge alignment right. The different sword types require very different techniques; sabres and katanas are somewhat awkward to stab with, for instance. A straight arming sword or longsword, however, is very good for that. Perhaps the attack and damage rolls could reflect these differences based on which swing type the player uses.
Axes should be cheaper I think (the shaft is usually wood) and have a lower skill cap than swords to be used effectively. If the edge alignment is a bit off, that's okay because they still pack a punch due to the brunt of their weight being at the top (unlike a sword). They should be good in-betweeny weapons in terms of damage range, mostly scaling with strength and still deal 80% damage to skellingtons (as they cause a lot of crushing damage).
Short-bladed weapons should be focused around attack speed. They're also generally easier to aim at the gaps in the opponent's armour once you've wrestled them to the ground. This could be reflected by giving short blades bonuses to backstabbing and crit damages in Daggerfall?

Point is, it would be more interesting to play a warrior proficient with multiple weapons if the various weapon sub-types differed more in terms of functionality.
"Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest."
- Mark Twain

daggerdude
Posts: 113
Joined: Sat May 23, 2015 2:22 pm

Re: Mods for rebalancing the weapon types?

Post by daggerdude » Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:58 pm

Yeah, a simple weapon handling/length/speed upgrade with weapon type bonuses/maluses would be a good step in the right direction.

User avatar
Seferoth
Posts: 543
Joined: Fri Nov 22, 2019 5:45 pm
Location: Finland

Re: Mods for rebalancing the weapon types?

Post by Seferoth » Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:56 am

I still can't think a good reason why Broadswords suck so badly. They do less damage than the other longblades, they are heavier and has the lowest enchant limit. I mean...why? They are the coolest looking swords in the game and yet they just suck so badly in every way. I use them anyway though, Daggerfashion all the way.
You can't have a nightmare if you never dream.

User avatar
Ralzar
Posts: 991
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:11 pm
Location: Norway

Re: Mods for rebalancing the weapon types?

Post by Ralzar » Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:38 am

Seferoth wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:56 am
Daggerfashion all the way.
Damn right! :)

I suspect one of the designers was a bit of a japanophile. Why else is there so many Tantos, Wakasashis, Katanas and Dai-Katanas? And they just happen to outperform all other weapons in the same category... :roll:
My released mods

"I feel like Ralzar specifically wrote those mods for me and then said "Use them". Just so he could watch me die more."
-FuzzyBeanPlays

User avatar
jayhova
Posts: 718
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:54 pm
Contact:

Re: Mods for rebalancing the weapon types?

Post by jayhova » Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:05 pm

There are at least 2 areas unexplored in the way of weapon balance. Climbing while holding a weapon should be difficult. Climbing while holding a long blade or blunt weapon much more so. Deployment time should also be different. Pulling out a dagger is very quick as opposed to other weapons. Switching between a short bow and a dagger might take less time than a longbow and a sword.
Remember always 'What would Julian Do?'.
Windows 10 Pro 64 bit. DFU Ver. Alpha 0.10.7

User avatar
Ralzar
Posts: 991
Joined: Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:11 pm
Location: Norway

Re: Mods for rebalancing the weapon types?

Post by Ralzar » Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:21 pm

jayhova wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:05 pm
Climbing while holding a weapon should be difficult.
Check out Roleplay&Realism mod ;)

jayhova wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:05 pm
Deployment time should also be different. Pulling out a dagger is very quick as opposed to other weapons. Switching between a short bow and a dagger might take less time than a longbow and a sword.
Hm, that is a good point. I haven't thought of this because it's allready so weirldy handled with only weapons being readied while everything else is instantaneous. I seem to remember the equipment sets mod under development was planning to handle that.
My released mods

"I feel like Ralzar specifically wrote those mods for me and then said "Use them". Just so he could watch me die more."
-FuzzyBeanPlays

User avatar
jayhova
Posts: 718
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:54 pm
Contact:

Re: Mods for rebalancing the weapon types?

Post by jayhova » Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:53 pm

Ralzar wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:21 pm
jayhova wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:05 pm
Climbing while holding a weapon should be difficult.
Check out Roleplay&Realism mod ;)
It was suggested as I recall that climbing with a weapon should be disallowed entirely. I instead suggest that the climb penalty be applied as weapon type times weapon weight.
Ralzar wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:21 pm
jayhova wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:05 pm
Deployment time should also be different. Pulling out a dagger is very quick as opposed to other weapons. Switching between a short bow and a dagger might take less time than a longbow and a sword.
Hm, that is a good point. I haven't thought of this because it's allready so weirldy handled with only weapons being readied while everything else is instantaneous. I seem to remember the equipment sets mod under development was planning to handle that.
My thought is that the time to arm yourself should be determined by weapon type times weight modified by character's agility
Remember always 'What would Julian Do?'.
Windows 10 Pro 64 bit. DFU Ver. Alpha 0.10.7

Post Reply