3D People of Daggerfall

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Jarlyjarljarl
Posts: 59
Joined: Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:37 am

Re: 3D People of Daggerfall

Post by Jarlyjarljarl »

I mean, the only reason we can't explore the source of mods made for Daggerfall unless released is because of the format that DFU mods come in not because of a choice made on the part of mod author. Literally any other game out there with accessible modding allows for users to explore the contents of mods without requiring access to an uncompiled source code build.

I understand the sentiment, but it's rather weird tbh considering that at the end of the day, we're all messing about with other people's work here by utilising DFU. The general etiquette in the modding scene, particularly with Bethesda games, is that of citing credit, unless the author explicitly says their work cannot be tampered with.

And when you think about it, how many mods out there would not be possible without such an open approach? So many mods have built off of the backs of other mods, other mods tweak the settings of already released mods to different standards or presets. Unofficial patches for abandoned mods, compatibility patches, addon patches that integrate themselves into the framework of existing mods and their systems.

Mods like Skyrim's Requiem (which require access to the code of mods in your list and ability to read level lists in your mod list to create unique patches) for example would be entirely impossible if Skyrim had a closed modding structure like DFU does.

Again I understand the sentiment, but it is rather an unusual one in this particular scene, and I feel that the only reason it has flourished here is due to the closed nature to which mods are formatted in DFU.

TL:DR I think that the current modding structure for DFU mods will ultimately end up limiting the scope of the modding scene for Daggerfall.

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King of Worms
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Re: 3D People of Daggerfall

Post by King of Worms »

One last time...

Mod authors are the ones who own their mods and we are the ones who decide if our mods are open or not, not anyone else. The legal rights stand behind us for a reason, you are welcomed to read for example DREAM licences at nexus

Main points are these

Other user's assets - Some assets in this file belong to other authors. You will need to seek permission from these authors before you can use their assets

Upload permission - You are not allowed to upload this file to other sites under any circumstances

Modification permission - You must get permission from me before you are allowed to modify my files to improve it

Conversion permission - You are not allowed to convert this file to work on other games under any circumstances

Asset use permission - You must get permission from me before you are allowed to use any of the assets in this file

Asset use permission in mods/files that are being sold You are not allowed to use assets from this file in any mods/files that are being sold, for money, on Steam Workshop or other platforms

Asset use permission in mods/files that earn donation points You are not allowed to earn Donation Points for your mods if they use my assets


These are my LEGAL RIGHTS in case you still dont get it.

Anyway, time to leave this ridiculous debate topic, I think anyone reasonable gets my points Ive laid down in my previous post about the standardized places to share open mods. Have a nice day yall :lol:

PS: so far 95% of ppl who asked me for anything from dream - got it. 5% being some really strange offers I turned down.
Last edited by King of Worms on Tue May 18, 2021 4:53 pm, edited 7 times in total.

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King of Worms
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Re: 3D People of Daggerfall

Post by King of Worms »

Completely agree with you!
Also thank you for tracing down the mod author and preserving his files!
I believe there will be a modeler in the future who can build up on this. Things are always easier when there is already a fundament to work with, rather than doing everything from scratch.
My pleasure and I agree that especially bigger projects are built in this way, someone creates one thing, gets burned out, other fresh person comes and builds upon that etc. Some parts of DREAM were also created in this way. Specifically the 1st person handheld, where Megaten created like 40% of assets and I created the rest but it was in 90% based on the 40% he laid down before and would not be possible without it. And he also disappeared and his links went dead! But I grabbed the files to my HDD and secured his permission before it was all gone. Also the monumental task created by Sitrus, same story, would be GONE if I did not secure the files and permission, he NEVER returned afterwards, was just gone one day and that was it. Like 40% of the clothing and some other parts of paperdoll system are based on his work.

l3lessed
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Re: 3D People of Daggerfall

Post by l3lessed »

As an author myself, that had to spend years to get to the place where I can create the mods I do now, I agree 100% with King of Worms. I will happily share my knowledge and usually my work without question, but I still want to have a right to my knowledge and work. Part of it is wanting to own it, but another part is also just standardization.

I didn't spend 2 years learning the fps rendering system, learning lerping calculations, learning frame timings and engine tick updates, the particle system, ect., so some script kiddy can come along, take all my scripts, produce some hacky knock off, and then completely split my mods user base by creating a whole new standard off of my hard earned work without any discussion with me. I spent time developing my mods and code a certain way with certain long term ideas in mind, including open community development, and I don't need or want some one else ignoring this and completely fracturing my mod development without permission or discussion of it.

From a coding perspective, the more open source coders contributing or creating off shot code from your mod, the more complicated and harder to track and keep your mod and its code standardized within the community. This leads to combability issue's and numerous other bugs and crashes as more unverified code is created around or off of a mod and more mods are added to a players list. We can see this in current Beth games with all the hacky patching tricks, automization, and record edits you have to do to get allot of mods to play together nicely.

As an example, if some one wants to create another FPS rendering mod to add differing combat mechanics or a second hand, they should go through my mod and develop from it with my permissions; I clearly state and develop it with the idea of other modders building off of it. This way, the two mods will play well together, no matter the users build order.

Instead, without modder rights, we would get people stealing the scripts and code, making a hacky offshoot with who knows what coding approach, and then drop it. Now, I would get my forums flooded with angry users, as they get crashes or broken mods from the hacky knock off not being developed around an existing mod standard.

We can already see this happening in a very small and understandable way with the formula helper object conflict issues between my combat mods and other peoples. This could of been resolved without any issue, if, like me, the developers of the other mods had built with an open source standard in mind. They didn't and that's okay, but it leads to my mod not working and me having to put in extra time creating custom patches for those developers, when they aren't even my mods.

Point being, the less fracturing of mods and code the better, and giving modders' rights to their work is one of the best ways to ensure this is as minimal as possible.
My Daggerfall Mod Github: l3lessed DFU Mod Github

My Beth Mods: l3lessed Nexus Page

Daggerfall Unity mods: Combat Overhaul Mod

Enjoy the free work I'm doing? Consider lending your support.

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BadLuckBurt
Posts: 634
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:30 pm

Re: 3D People of Daggerfall

Post by BadLuckBurt »

While I agree with KoW, maybe this discussion should move to a separate thread?
Daggerfall Unity on UESP: https://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=T ... fall_Unity
Daggerfall Unity on Nexus Mods: https://www.nexusmods.com/daggerfallunity
My github repositories with mostly DFU related stuff: https://github.com/BadLuckBurt

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King of Worms
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Re: 3D People of Daggerfall

Post by King of Worms »

I hope its over, thanks l3lessed for great input and thanks BadLuck, its up to you 😊 if anyone wants to continue explaining why illegal acts are ok with him, maybe that might be good time to step in...

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Daniel87
Posts: 329
Joined: Thu Nov 28, 2019 6:25 pm

Re: 3D People of Daggerfall

Post by Daniel87 »

l3lessed wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 4:58 pm As an author myself, that had to spend years to get to the place where I can create the mods I do now, I agree 100% with King of Worms. I will happily share my knowledge and usually my work without question, but I still want to have a right to my knowledge and work. Part of it is wanting to own it, but another part is also just standardization.

I didn't spend 2 years learning the fps rendering system, learning lerping calculations, learning frame timings and engine tick updates, the particle system, ect., so some script kiddy can come along, take all my scripts, produce some hacky knock off, and then completely split my mods user base by creating a whole new standard off of my hard earned work without any discussion with me. I spent time developing my mods and code a certain way with certain long term ideas in mind, including open community development, and I don't need or want some one else ignoring this and completely fracturing my mod development without permission or discussion of it.

From a coding perspective, the more open source coders contributing or creating off shot code from your mod, the more complicated and harder to track and keep your mod and its code standardized within the community. This leads to combability issue's and numerous other bugs and crashes as more unverified code is created around or off of a mod and more mods are added to a players list. We can see this in current Beth games with all the hacky patching tricks, automization, and record edits you have to do to get allot of mods to play together nicely.

As an example, if some one wants to create another FPS rendering mod to add differing combat mechanics or a second hand, they should go through my mod and develop from it with my permissions; I clearly state and develop it with the idea of other modders building off of it. This way, the two mods will play well together, no matter the users build order.

Instead, without modder rights, we would get people stealing the scripts and code, making a hacky offshoot with who knows what coding approach, and then drop it. Now, I would get my forums flooded with angry users, as they get crashes or broken mods from the hacky knock off not being developed around an existing mod standard.

We can already see this happening in a very small and understandable way with the formula helper object conflict issues between my combat mods and other peoples. This could of been resolved without any issue, if, like me, the developers of the other mods had built with an open source standard in mind. They didn't and that's okay, but it leads to my mod not working and me having to put in extra time creating custom patches for those developers, when they aren't even my mods.

Point being, the less fracturing of mods and code the better, and giving modders' rights to their work is one of the best ways to ensure this is as minimal as possible.
Agree :)

Funny enough, the way I am coding is sometimes so twisted and not straight forward, that even old pro coders have trouble understanding what I am doing, but miraculously it works. Best copy right protection :D
Only if somebody really understand, what I was doing there, they can tamper with it, otherwise the whole house of cards collapses hahaha.

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