Wilderness Overhaul

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ByteMixer
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Re: Wilderness Overhaul

Post by ByteMixer »

Daniel87 wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 7:06 pm SNIP: (oaks don't like to hang out with needle trees, as the latter like it more acidic while oaks love their alkaline ground)
A little thing I vaguely remember from my college biology is that you basically have 3 generations of forests. The first generation, or new growths tend to primarily be evergreens/pines/etc. Needle and narrow leaves. As the forest ages into a 2nd generation, you start seeing more broad leaf trees such as maples, oaks, dogwoods, etc. etc. so you get a mixture. Then when you get to the old, established forests, they are primarily broadleaf trees such as oaks and the like with evergreens/narrow leaf trees being diminished. (we also covered what the difference between a pond and lake is, and it basically dealt with how much surface area was shaded by trees at the water edge, rather than the size or shape of the body of water.)

Just a little something from what I remembered from general biology back in 1999, lol! Caveat: I think we were covering forests around the US, particularly Florida, rather than globally or in Europe. And it was a broad scope. We didn't get into the nitty gritty stuff like soil composition. He have covered that a bit in his flora & fauna course, but I didn't take that. (I did take core biology 1 later, though, and I took Botany 1 at one point, but that dealt more with the internals and fluid/flow dynamics and stuff).
"Whatever you do, make good art." - Neil Gaiman

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Daniel87
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Re: Wilderness Overhaul

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Merlkir wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 8:40 am This looks excellent. I love that it goes beyond the usual modder approach to "making things look better", which usually means just obscenely high resolution textures and cranked up contrast. You're keeping the stylized look, but actually making objectively nice changes to it.
Thank you!
Yes, I figured this way I can leave it up to the player to choose the graphics he prefers. I just wanted to get more realism into the nature layout.
The mod optimally is played with interesting eroded terrain, real grass 2 and DREAM for some absolute eye candy :)
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Daniel87
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Re: Wilderness Overhaul

Post by Daniel87 »

King of Worms wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 8:20 pm Congrats on the pre-release. I have been observing the progress a lot and you are very skilled, its a pleasure to have you on board. The work you do will literally change the whole DFU world, and thats a big feat. The results so far look really amazing, thank you :)
Wow, thank you! I never thought about myself like this, as I am a self taught spaghetti coder who sometimes has a lot of free time at hand :D
Glad when people enjoy my work. I will soon resume intensive work on it. Right now I just hit a small motivation hole, so I started playing SCUM online and distract myself a bit from DFU.

But as we speak I started watching Zaric Zhakarons Gameplay videos of DFU again to get myself motivated and ready to continue work on the next biome (Either mountains or Desert).
Not sure how to approach mountains though, as we only have one single tree available, so its all about distribution rather than forest groups of different trees.
The desert will also be interesting.

After all Biomes are finished, the hardest part will start: Getting it to run fast and smooth, as Interesting Eroded Terrain + Real Grass are already taxing enough. Currently with my mod it becomes almost unplayable if you fast travel. I really have to figure a way to improve performance and remove bottlenecks.

Once all this is done and we can call it a v0.8 or so, I would like to even start incorporating Interesting Eroded Terrain into my mod, learn about heightmaps and add some algorithms for additional landscapes. I will then also try to rework your DREAM Terrain tiles and improve the gradients between the terrain tile types, as we discussed via PM if you still give me green light :)

Something I had in the back of my mind for a long time was this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QOcCGI6xOU
Realistic clouds in DFU.
Maybe also proper light refraction in the atmosphere depending on day time, which then leads to a better weather system, lightnings, etc.

As you can see from Sebastian Lagues videos, there is a lot of research involved but thanks to his generous nature, the github sources are available, which will fasten the process quite a bit. His videos are amazing and always motivate me to learn more when coding. I love the concept of creating own worlds. In his most recent video he actually recreated Astroneers marching cube for planet generation and manipulation. I was thinking how that would look in DFU. (A fire spell really blasting a hole into the landscape :D) But then we would really need some nice 3D models for everything as well as good animations and a smarter AI, to match the sophisticated terrain.

I think clouds still would look great coupled with the eroded terrain and better nature placement. The algorithm would have to coupled to the weather system, generating cumulonimbus in summer, cirrus in winter, etc. and tint them darker when its raining. But just imagine how such a weather system would create immersion in the already very immersive DFU world.
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Daniel87
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Re: Wilderness Overhaul

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ByteMixer wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:26 pm
Daniel87 wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 7:06 pm SNIP: (oaks don't like to hang out with needle trees, as the latter like it more acidic while oaks love their alkaline ground)
A little thing I vaguely remember from my college biology is that you basically have 3 generations of forests. The first generation, or new growths tend to primarily be evergreens/pines/etc. Needle and narrow leaves. As the forest ages into a 2nd generation, you start seeing more broad leaf trees such as maples, oaks, dogwoods, etc. etc. so you get a mixture. Then when you get to the old, established forests, they are primarily broadleaf trees such as oaks and the like with evergreens/narrow leaf trees being diminished. (we also covered what the difference between a pond and lake is, and it basically dealt with how much surface area was shaded by trees at the water edge, rather than the size or shape of the body of water.)

Just a little something from what I remembered from general biology back in 1999, lol! Caveat: I think we were covering forests around the US, particularly Florida, rather than globally or in Europe. And it was a broad scope. We didn't get into the nitty gritty stuff like soil composition. He have covered that a bit in his flora & fauna course, but I didn't take that. (I did take core biology 1 later, though, and I took Botany 1 at one point, but that dealt more with the internals and fluid/flow dynamics and stuff).
Absolutely. Pioneer plants are always the first ones to conquer new lands (good visible on new volcanic land masses or islands).
In my studies I had Soil Science, Geology, geomorphology, hydrogeology, etc. but I barely remember anything, only some interesting facts got stuck in my twisted brain, lol.

The way I programmed the different forests atm is: Every MapPixel gets a random type number (1-5) and depending on this number, it picks one of lets say 3-6 different forest types +/- a random number that makes it partially shift into a neighboring forest type. Currently I have just some example forests in the arrays that are not logically placed. This still has to be done, so transitions between forests actually make more sense.
Problem is, I am not quite sure which pixel tree is a representation of what real life tree, as sometimes seem to be fantasy trees.
In Biomes like Mountains, you only have one single type of tree, which totally ruins immersion. Here I will need an option to scale and mirror trees in the future to create additional dimensions of variation. I will create another request in the future for this implementation, as it can be of help in many different modding projects beside of my own and should be considered the basic tool set of working with sprites in DFU.

The desert will also be very interesting, as I will have to adapt my forest system for succulent plants and bushes rather than trees.
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ByteMixer
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Re: Wilderness Overhaul

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In any case, great work so far! I'm hardly a scripter or modder beyond the music/audio side of things. I did take computer science courses (Visual Basic, C++, COBOL) back in college. But ended up not going into that field. So, some of the real granular details get lost on me, and I'll have to take your word for a few things, haha!

I feel a bit like the desert and tropic/subtropic biomes foliage might be less based on existing trees, whereas the temperate biome seems to have some fairly common things like elm, fir, oak, scots pine, douglas fir, cedar, linden, cherry, sycamore, etc. just looking at the images VMblast posted in his Trees of Daggerfall mod thread. But he's only done the temperate area so far, and only one season. Of course, you've already taken a look there, so you know this, hah.

Given your background, you probably have a fair grasp of how and why certain plants prefer certain locations within a biome. So, I'm sure you'll get it figured out. Worse case, you can always dig up images of the biome style in question, and see if you can discern the patterns or rhyme/reason why certain plants may want to be in one type of spot versus another. And regarding the desert or other arid areas, it could be anything from acidity/alkalinity of the soil (if you can call that soil), whether the soil is more sandy or more rocky, how arid the area looks, not to mention location and shade amounts, and just how the seeds get spread around by various wildlife or wind/weather.

And even then, not all deserts are alike. The Sahara is nothing like the Gobi, which is nothing like Death Valley or the Mojave, or Baja California, or the Thar Desert or Atacama.
"Whatever you do, make good art." - Neil Gaiman

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Daniel87
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Re: Wilderness Overhaul

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ByteMixer wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 4:23 am In any case, great work so far! I'm hardly a scripter or modder beyond the music/audio side of things. I did take computer science courses (Visual Basic, C++, COBOL) back in college. But ended up not going into that field. So, some of the real granular details get lost on me, and I'll have to take your word for a few things, haha!

I feel a bit like the desert and tropic/subtropic biomes foliage might be less based on existing trees, whereas the temperate biome seems to have some fairly common things like elm, fir, oak, scots pine, douglas fir, cedar, linden, cherry, sycamore, etc. just looking at the images VMblast posted in his Trees of Daggerfall mod thread. But he's only done the temperate area so far, and only one season. Of course, you've already taken a look there, so you know this, hah.

Given your background, you probably have a fair grasp of how and why certain plants prefer certain locations within a biome. So, I'm sure you'll get it figured out. Worse case, you can always dig up images of the biome style in question, and see if you can discern the patterns or rhyme/reason why certain plants may want to be in one type of spot versus another. And regarding the desert or other arid areas, it could be anything from acidity/alkalinity of the soil (if you can call that soil), whether the soil is more sandy or more rocky, how arid the area looks, not to mention location and shade amounts, and just how the seeds get spread around by various wildlife or wind/weather.

And even then, not all deserts are alike. The Sahara is nothing like the Gobi, which is nothing like Death Valley or the Mojave, or Baja California, or the Thar Desert or Atacama.
Absolutely! While working on my own game project, I realized how lost a single programmer like me can become, when facing topics such as OST, music, animation, 3D modelling, etc. Every skill is a needed skill and completes a project.

I will try and dedicate some hours tonight in pushing the mod further, as it starts weighing heavy on my shoulders, knowing that there is an actual community anticipating its release and seeing the amount of work that still lies ahead of me.
It's time to put SCUM away and get back to productive coding labour. :D
In Julianos we Trust.

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Kamer
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Re: Wilderness Overhaul

Post by Kamer »

Daniel87 wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:02 am
ByteMixer wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 4:23 am In any case, great work so far! I'm hardly a scripter or modder beyond the music/audio side of things. I did take computer science courses (Visual Basic, C++, COBOL) back in college. But ended up not going into that field. So, some of the real granular details get lost on me, and I'll have to take your word for a few things, haha!

I feel a bit like the desert and tropic/subtropic biomes foliage might be less based on existing trees, whereas the temperate biome seems to have some fairly common things like elm, fir, oak, scots pine, douglas fir, cedar, linden, cherry, sycamore, etc. just looking at the images VMblast posted in his Trees of Daggerfall mod thread. But he's only done the temperate area so far, and only one season. Of course, you've already taken a look there, so you know this, hah.

Given your background, you probably have a fair grasp of how and why certain plants prefer certain locations within a biome. So, I'm sure you'll get it figured out. Worse case, you can always dig up images of the biome style in question, and see if you can discern the patterns or rhyme/reason why certain plants may want to be in one type of spot versus another. And regarding the desert or other arid areas, it could be anything from acidity/alkalinity of the soil (if you can call that soil), whether the soil is more sandy or more rocky, how arid the area looks, not to mention location and shade amounts, and just how the seeds get spread around by various wildlife or wind/weather.

And even then, not all deserts are alike. The Sahara is nothing like the Gobi, which is nothing like Death Valley or the Mojave, or Baja California, or the Thar Desert or Atacama.
Absolutely! While working on my own game project, I realized how lost a single programmer like me can become, when facing topics such as OST, music, animation, 3D modelling, etc. Every skill is a needed skill and completes a project.

I will try and dedicate some hours tonight in pushing the mod further, as it starts weighing heavy on my shoulders, knowing that there is an actual community anticipating its release and seeing the amount of work that still lies ahead of me.
It's time to put SCUM away and get back to productive coding labour. :D
Just do everything like me.

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Daniel87
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Re: Wilderness Overhaul

Post by Daniel87 »

Kamer wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:07 pm Just do everything like me.
Ain't nobody got time for that! :D
Just lost > 10 hours of progress in Pokemon yellow edition (gamebody emulator) on my rpi4 due to the inability to quit the emulator. (hot button didn't react so I had to pull the plug while the emulator was running).

I feel like moving into the woods for a month and hiding from anything electronic...
In Julianos we Trust.

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Daniel87
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Re: Wilderness Overhaul

Post by Daniel87 »

Sorry for my inactivity lately. Real life was catching up with me but now that the coffers are replenished, let's get right into the newest updates:

TERRAIN TEXTURING:
As of the recent update of Interesting Eroded Terrain, my TerrainTexturing algorithm didn't work properly anymore. It is a fine-tuned line of code for each climate zone and sensible to drastic changes in the elevation of heightmaps. I now tried to simplify it a little to get it working again and it looks pretty fine now. Later on I realized that the problem came from the UID of Interesting Eroded Terrain having changed, so my mod used the wrong algorithm. :oops:

I pronounced the change in terrain stronger for woodlands. When you are close to the shore, there is more sand and dirt. When going up to the highest areas of the woodland climate, you will see more rocky terrains.
Image

Then I came across some shorelines that looked odd. Steep rock faces that dive down into the water always were having a thick line of "beach" before touching the water.

I removed the beach for these places but realized that due to the texture limit, there is no texture that handles stone>water.
Image

So I resorted to a compromise of a very thin line of beach at these places.
Image

TERRAIN NATURE:
I improved the gradients between different kind of forests.
Image

Image

I might soon prepare a sheet of different trees and their corresponding number.
Then you, my dear community, can decide for different tree families grouped together. I need to create different forests for
A) Different altitudes (ocean to highest "mountains" of woodland climate) and
B) Different kind of forests for each altitude.

Woodland landscapes cover 5 different altitudes. 1 would be shoreline and beach while 5 is rocky high mountains.
I would suggest to have at least 5 different groups of trees for each altitude. A group of trees = a forest type. These forest types can also consist of the same trees but with different likeliness to spawn each tree type.
Image
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Freak2121
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Re: Wilderness Overhaul

Post by Freak2121 »

That looks lovely, Daniel, fantastic job! The transition between different forest types looks very natural.

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