Quiet dungeons (suggested mod/fix)

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jayhova
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Quiet dungeons (suggested mod/fix)

Post by jayhova » Sun Mar 03, 2019 11:24 pm

I don't think it was ever Julian's intent to have dungeons be the way they are. Of course Julian was working on a project of immense scope with limited time/labor. As such, things just fell by the wayside. So, I look at DFU through the lens of WWJD. What would Julian do?

One of the things that bug me about dungeons in Daggerfall is how the random dungeon generation has some negative effects on play. One of the artifacts of this generation is monsters in isolated pockets. The monsters are unable to reach you and you should not be able to even hear them. But you can hear them and they prevent you from sleeping. Daggerfall (both classic and DFU) does not consider walls a barrier to either sound or threat. I think this is one of those things that Julian simply did not have the resources to fix because dungeons worked, for the most part, and he was focusing on content and bug fixing.

In the WWJD spirit, I think it would be nice to fix the problem of dungeon monsters. The problem is twofold. Sound in dungeons is not properly attenuated and pathing is not considered when assessing if an area is safe to sleep in. Both of these things are artifacts of DF using simple linear distance to determine them both.

Neither sound nor threat should be able to pass through void. For the purpose of sound and threat (the property that keeps you from sleeping) void should be an absolute barrier. So you should not be able to sense in any way (other than magical) that there is a monster 10' away if there is void separating you completely from it. For sound, the rule should be similar. Stone walls should attenuate sound dramatically. An 8" stone wall has an STC of 60. A motorcycle would sound like a quiet rural area from the other side. A door on the other hand would have an STC of maybe 30. To achieve the same loudness the noise level on the other side of the door could only be as loud as a restaurant. A secret door being made of stone might have a STC of 45 or so. A dungeon wall has a very high mass due to it bearing a huge load. A typical 3' dungeon wall would have a STC so high so to make it impossible to hear any noise that would not be intolerable to hear if you were in the room. That undead scream on the other side of the door would be maybe as loud as an alarm clock. On the other side of a secret door as loud as laughter. And laughter on the other side of that secret door would only be as loud as rustling leaves. So sound should travel along a path and be attenuated at the proper points.

The quick and dirty solution would be just to null out all the monsters in areas a quest goal cannot manifest
Last edited by jayhova on Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Remember always 'What would Julian Do?'.
Windows 10 Pro 64 bit. DFU Ver. 0.7.146

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mikeprichard
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Re: Quite dungeons (suggested mod/fix)

Post by mikeprichard » Mon Mar 04, 2019 4:15 pm

Sorry to be "that guy", but to avoid confusion, please amend your topic title to "Quiet" (not "Quite"). But there is quite a lot of interesting stuff here! :)

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jayhova
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Re: Quite dungeons (suggested mod/fix)

Post by jayhova » Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:47 pm

mikeprichard wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 4:15 pm
Sorry to be "that guy", but to avoid confusion, please amend your topic title to "Quiet" (not "Quite"). But there is quite a lot of interesting stuff here! :)
Dyslexia strikes again. It's a pain in the ass because the word does not look wrong nor does the spell checker catch it. :-(
I'm happy you said something. Not so happy I missed it. :-P

P.S.
I used editing to correct one or two things and added a link to STC for those of you who are not audio engineers.
Remember always 'What would Julian Do?'.
Windows 10 Pro 64 bit. DFU Ver. 0.7.146

Narf the Mouse
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Re: Quiet dungeons (suggested mod/fix)

Post by Narf the Mouse » Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:10 am

"You cannot sleep. There is a bat in a closed-off dungeon room which cannot possible reach you, but whose annoying squeeking is keeping you awake..."

Yeah, this is a mod I'd want. :D
Previous experience tells me it's very easy to misunderstand the tone, intent, or meaning of what I've posted. If you have questions, ask.

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Alyndiar
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Re: Quiet dungeons (suggested mod/fix)

Post by Alyndiar » Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:43 am

Narf the Mouse wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:10 am
"You cannot sleep. There is a bat in a closed-off dungeon room which cannot possible reach you, but whose annoying squeeking is keeping you awake..."

Yeah, this is a mod I'd want. :D
Yes, yes! Please! I would love that kind of humor in DFU ;)

Narf the Mouse
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Re: Quiet dungeons (suggested mod/fix)

Post by Narf the Mouse » Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:31 am

Alyndiar wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:43 am
Narf the Mouse wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:10 am
"You cannot sleep. There is a bat in a closed-off dungeon room which cannot possible reach you, but whose annoying squeeking is keeping you awake..."

Yeah, this is a mod I'd want. :D
Yes, yes! Please! I would love that kind of humor in DFU ;)
...Well, I suppose that is a different way to solve the problem. :lol:
Previous experience tells me it's very easy to misunderstand the tone, intent, or meaning of what I've posted. If you have questions, ask.

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Kayzee
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Re: Quiet dungeons (suggested mod/fix)

Post by Kayzee » Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:38 am

How are dungeon blocks actually connected anyway? I would assume each block has marked exits which connect with the exits of other blocks. Of course everything in Daggerfall is pre-generated, but Daggerfall Unity still has do some on the fly generation when the SmallerDungeons is enabled dosn't it? So I think the data still has a way of specifying how the blocks connect together. If so, could it recursively check each room exit from the entrance room to make a table of all the blocks connect and use it to prune disconnected blocks and figure out how sound propagates? I donno how easay that would be to actually do though.

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pango
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Re: Quiet dungeons (suggested mod/fix)

Post by pango » Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:22 am

Kayzee wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:38 am
How are dungeon blocks actually connected anyway? I would assume each block has marked exits which connect with the exits of other blocks.
It's simpler than that, all the dungeon "blocks" have doors at the same places, everything just "snaps together".
Check the UESP for an introduction.
Kayzee wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:38 am
Of course everything in Daggerfall is pre-generated, but Daggerfall Unity still has do some on the fly generation when the SmallerDungeons is enabled dosn't it?
It uses one existing center block and 4 border blocks, and voila, a valid small dungeon.
But in Daggerfall classic, only Privateer's Hold is made on that model; All other dungeons (if you exclude cemeteries) are larger. See viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1502&p=17318#p17318
When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.
-- Charles Goodhart

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Kayzee
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Re: Quiet dungeons (suggested mod/fix)

Post by Kayzee » Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:42 am

Wait... How big are dungeon blocks then?

*looks deeper at it*

Oh! They are a lot bigger then I expected. :O I thought each hallway/room was it's own 'block', but apparently not. No wonder Daggerfall dungeons are so weird! So what I said before won't work... unless we basically build a BSP table or something for each block I guess? Or something like that.

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jayhova
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Re: Quiet dungeons (suggested mod/fix)

Post by jayhova » Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:59 pm

Kayzee wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:42 am
Wait... How big are dungeon blocks then?

*looks deeper at it*

Oh! They are a lot bigger then I expected. :O I thought each hallway/room was it's own 'block', but apparently not. No wonder Daggerfall dungeons are so weird! So what I said before won't work... unless we basically build a BSP table or something for each block I guess? Or something like that.
jayhova wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:58 pm
Added Dungeon block to the glossary.
Remember always 'What would Julian Do?'.
Windows 10 Pro 64 bit. DFU Ver. 0.7.146

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