Combat Overhaul Alpha

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Ommamar
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Re: Combat Overhaul Alpha

Post by Ommamar » Sat Sep 28, 2019 10:37 pm

l3lessed wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:26 pm
What your describing makes no sense to me from the engine coding perspective.

All attack speeds are set based on a single formula. All the mouse swing attacks do is wait for the player to go over a certain yaw angle, then it triggers the exact same attack animation and raycasting as the click type attacks. There is no difference when it comes to attack speeds and animations. They all pull from the same routines, formulas, and scripts. It probably felt slower because it is harder to initiate the attacks using the dragging, so it seems more sluggish. However, the animations and attack speeds are the same always, no matter what in default DFU.

My mod adds small attack speed variations based on weapon weight and range. However, that is not built into default DFU. All weapons have same range and attack speed in default DFU.

And yes, the kick animation will be the backwards movement + attack. Plan on adding a small push bonus to that attack too to give it more of a distinct kick feel and add a little variety and complexity to melee combat.
Likely a perception thing then that occurs, I have read about animation and film dubbing. I remembering reading in a biography of Walt Disney that when they where making the first of their cartoons with sounds they found a 6-10 second delay was needed (I am sure it was mostly do to the technology they had). Otherwise things appeared out of sync even though both things where running at the same time.

Probably the same thing here by a lag in the animation being initiated my perception was that the animation was sluggish. Makes sense with how you described it that the animation once fired would move at the same rate. I am curious though how the speed modifier plays into things or whether it will as your description that you spread the 5 frames into 12 offset to achieve 60 frames indicates you haven't implemented a speed modifier yet.

I like the idea of a push back attached to the kick, this would indicate it won't be attached to a punch? I have really noticed in 0.10,.7 that I can achieve a large push back with any weapon after the build gets to skill level 70 or so. Maybe it was happening before and I just didn't notice but it seems like I knock things way down a ramp or hallway now when I connect with a melee weapon.

l3lessed
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Re: Combat Overhaul Alpha

Post by l3lessed » Sat Sep 28, 2019 11:44 pm

I have built in one attack speed modifier.

This is the weapon attack speed. This is computed using the weapons weight and length to try and simulate the physics of the weapon. It then just adds to the default attack speed; larger, longer weapons swing slower. Small, light weapons swing faster.

I also messed with the animation speed itself; however, this doesn't affect the overall attack speed. This is a mere cosmetic affect I added to simulate weapon weight/physics. As an example, down attack starts off slower then quickly picks up speed over the animation total time, which simulates the physics of gravity and weapon weight.

The flail increases speed going into its arc on the left and right attacks to simulate the weight of the ball increasing its max speed/arc.
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Ommamar
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Re: Combat Overhaul Alpha

Post by Ommamar » Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:09 am

That is logical.

I am curious your views on the speed modifier. I read of an incident involving Bruce Lee running a simulation with several of his friends where he had them try to strike a target inside this machine that would clamp down on the wrist once movement was detected. Everyone had to stand in the same stance, from the same distance and move the hand in the same plane. What was found was there was very little difference between the participates during the test but when they sparred their was a large disparity of how they where able to apply the speed they had.
I think the speed modifier is designed to kind of replicate that instance of someone who is experienced and is able to project when the best time is to apply speed to their opponent. The reality is though that if you insist on someone doing anything with as much speed as possible the results will be much less if they did something at a comfortable speed.

I guess what I am asking is how close to reality are you trying to achieve? I know why the utilize speed as they do in Daggerfall but the reality is that someone that just flails around with a weapon not using any technique would likely loose to someone who patiently waited for the optimal time to strike. I sense this is a large part of what you are trying to achieve so no idea how much speed will or should change that. Of course though it is one of the obvious ways to indicate a character build getting better at combat. After all you can't really tell how hard you are hitting or how frugal you are being with your energy or at least as not as easily as hey I am swinging my weapon faster!

daggerdude
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Re: Combat Overhaul Alpha

Post by daggerdude » Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:39 pm

This is so freaking cool. seriously. Never thought anyone would actually do this!

I don't think it'll be me, but supposing someone came up with new weapon sprites with about the same amount of frames, could you simply plug those in and utilize that?

also just as an idea for enemy attack indications... Arena had a playerdoll for humanoids that basically had a seperate weapon animation that played in sync with it; axes, maces, ect. Theoretically, if one can make the attack animations, you could draw a floating weapon in front of the enemy, maybe a swinging effect to indicate direction, ect. Same with shields.

So basically the enemy would stand stillframed (since there are no enemies now with these type of animations) but a weapon would be drawn on screen.

Total war Shogun and Medieval used this type of animation to simulate soldiers wielding different weapons cheaply.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVa2zZCWUyY

Also... I wonder if Arena humanoid sprites can be imported into daggerfall and made to work...
Last edited by daggerdude on Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

l3lessed
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Re: Combat Overhaul Alpha

Post by l3lessed » Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:43 pm

In a way yes. The cif file would need updated so the higher fps animations are contained in it. And then, I would need to change a few things in the code to get the default DFunity to read and process all 60 frames and ensure they align with the attack speed/animation routine.

Until someone provides me with the sprite packets for all the weapons, I will keep using the default engine sprites and setup and fake a high fps animation with code offsetting and sprite manipulation in the code.
I guess what I am asking is how close to reality are you trying to achieve? I know why the utilize speed as they do in Daggerfall but the reality is that someone that just flails around with a weapon not using any technique would likely loose to someone who patiently waited for the optimal time to strike. I sense this is a large part of what you are trying to achieve so no idea how much speed will or should change that. Of course though it is one of the obvious ways to indicate a character build getting better at combat. After all you can't really tell how hard you are hitting or how frugal you are being with your energy or at least as not as easily as hey I am swinging my weapon faster!
I don't plan on weapon speed impacting damage or other stats. I'm assuming the reason you swing faster as your agility skill goes up is because your character has been training in faster attacks speeds to compensate for lacking a strong hit/strength. I do plan on putting in some form of power attacks, like Skyrim, so you can make a choice between a quick attack or a longer more powerful attack.
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Daggerfall Unity mods: Combat Overhaul Mod

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daggerdude
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Re: Combat Overhaul Alpha

Post by daggerdude » Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:59 pm

Theoretically, it's quite easy to go to sketchfab, find freeware/attribution models, take screenshots of weapons in various poses, use those instead.
https://sketchfab.com
I've had to do that for some DOOM modding as well as ripping other renders from other sources.

there's also the possibility of using a 3d model editor to render keyframes of a model and exporting the renders individually. Easier said than done however.
I used to do that sort of thing myself but i've been out of practice; i used to use 3d studio max in... 2009!

But there are certain free programs that, theoretically, one could make a model or import a free one and then render to their heart's content is what i'm saying.

Ommamar
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Re: Combat Overhaul Alpha

Post by Ommamar » Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:53 am

l3lessed wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:43 pm
In a way yes. The cif file would need updated so the higher fps animations are contained in it. And then, I would need to change a few things in the code to get the default DFunity to read and process all 60 frames and ensure they align with the attack speed/animation routine.

Until someone provides me with the sprite packets for all the weapons, I will keep using the default engine sprites and setup and fake a high fps animation with code offsetting and sprite manipulation in the code.
I guess what I am asking is how close to reality are you trying to achieve? I know why the utilize speed as they do in Daggerfall but the reality is that someone that just flails around with a weapon not using any technique would likely loose to someone who patiently waited for the optimal time to strike. I sense this is a large part of what you are trying to achieve so no idea how much speed will or should change that. Of course though it is one of the obvious ways to indicate a character build getting better at combat. After all you can't really tell how hard you are hitting or how frugal you are being with your energy or at least as not as easily as hey I am swinging my weapon faster!
I don't plan on weapon speed impacting damage or other stats. I'm assuming the reason you swing faster as your agility skill goes up is because your character has been training in faster attacks speeds to compensate for lacking a strong hit/strength. I do plan on putting in some form of power attacks, like Skyrim, so you can make a choice between a quick attack or a longer more powerful attack.
I can see the reasoning behind that, I am just wondering about a way to include the speed attribute. I think it could be tied into coordination and muscle memory. If you have ever been in a boxing gym it is easy to spot the people who have trained more then others. Their movements aren't necessarily quicker just smoother with less effort involved. With the mention of additional animation frame I think this could be simulated. Maybe have it so that at a certain speed attribute there is a series of animation frames that fire while a different one is used for a build with higher speed. In the first scenario maybe the sword doesn't move in an unbroken arc but dips a little at the apex. Maybe when you swing a flail initially it moves slowly until momentum and the effect of gravity increase the numbers of frames shown. Then once your speed has improved the frames happen in a smooth natural arc.
Just thoughts, likely you aren't at this point to implement yet but if someone can create additional frames of animation it would be a way to implement a difference in speed.

l3lessed
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Re: Combat Overhaul Alpha

Post by l3lessed » Thu Oct 03, 2019 3:32 pm

I think I understand what you're asking for now.

Yeah, not sure if this would ever get in. What you're asking for would require adding a ton of switches to the already large switch board I am creating to trigger and run the animations properly. So, on top of creating a switch for each animation type, hand programming proper offset times for each animation, grabbing, manipulating, and ramming frames into certain frames to deal with cutoff issues (while ensuring enchanted sprites still look good and animate properly), then programming each raycast to offset with each animation frame, timing, and offset placement, and finally customizing the offset for specific animation differences.

So, after doing all that, what you would want would require going into each of those steps, creating switches based on a players attribute, and then modifying the offsets and speeds to randomly vary to mimic a lack of skill, then program more specialized raycast arcs and offsets for each one of those triggers. And hope, by the end of it all, some switch some where doesn't cause a script cascade failure and engine crash.

Maybe, one day, but I won't lie, don't plan on it.

However, I do already have some basic speed variation in to merely mimic weapon weight/physics. Down strikes pick up speed on all weapons. Left/Right pick up speed with the flail the closer to the peak of the arc it is.
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l3lessed
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Re: Combat Overhaul Alpha

Post by l3lessed » Thu Oct 03, 2019 8:35 pm

Theoretically, it's quite easy to go to sketchfab, find freeware/attribution models, take screenshots of weapons in various poses, use those instead.
https://sketchfab.com
I've had to do that for some DOOM modding as well as ripping other renders from other sources.

there's also the possibility of using a 3d model editor to render keyframes of a model and exporting the renders individually. Easier said than done however.
I used to do that sort of thing myself but i've been out of practice; i used to use 3d studio max in... 2009!

But there are certain free programs that, theoretically, one could make a model or import a free one and then render to their heart's content is what i'm saying.
This has been discussed on another thread. When I first started working on my mod, I was wanting to do it this way, as it is the easiest, most straight forward, and doesn't require a ton of coding. However, everyone, understandably, made it clear that it wasn't going to happen easily because of the amount of frames required for 60 fps animations. I have enough coding work to do already, I do not plan on relearning newer modeling or animation software, as I haven't touched that side of development in years either. Also, in the long run, my offsetting will actually work better with default daggerfall anyways, because anyone can easily replace the five sprite animation and still have completely smooth, offset animations, since it is a direct engine offset mimicking the appearance of an animation.

However, if a skilled artist wants to provide me with either a fully rigged and animated 3d weapon/hands model or brand new 60 fps sprite animations, I would be happy to get them in during my development cycle.

Here is the original thread I created to breakdown how animations are actually created on the engine level and a discussion about upping the frame counts/rate of the sprites: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=2554
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Daggerfall Unity mods: Combat Overhaul Mod

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Sandman
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Re: Combat Overhaul Alpha

Post by Sandman » Fri Oct 04, 2019 4:39 pm

Hello, l3lessed
I found a way how to build the mod easier than constructing a custom build. First, if your mod replacing text files, textures or other DFUnity resources, you can use Unity Assets Bundle Extractor. This program is able to browse, to export and to import resources. After that, it will create an .exe file that will update a resources.assets file. I tested this tool, and it works!
Second, UABE isn't able to replace the scripts, that's because the scripts packed in \Daggerfall Unity_Data\Managed\Assembly-CSharp.dll . I found a guide for a one Unity game. Its description explains well what it is about . I have not tested it yet, but let you know if it works.
Waiting for first release :D your work is great.

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