Roads of Daggerfall

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Skipper
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:06 pm

Re: Roads of Daggerfall

Post by Skipper » Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:39 pm

jayhova wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:53 pm
I'm not a developer. I'm a guy who has read a bit on ancient roads and how and why they were built.
Keep in mind, the game is not real, and it does not have to follow most of real rules.
Also, you want to keep an algorithm as simple as possible, getting somehow believable result at the same time.
Throw away everything, except few rules that make sense for a game and fit into it.
1. Roads connect places. This is good rule. It fits into game concept and allows to explore the world without need to constantly check your map. You just follow a path defined by road and you end up somewhere - a city, or other settlement type, or ruins, or tomb, or camp, whatever point of interest you want.
2. There should be various roads (not many types), e.g. stone roads between big cities, dirt roads leading to smaller settlements, and abandoned variations of both types for ruins and wild, secret or hidden places.
3. Roads cross each other sometimes. Period.
4. Roads are not straight lines, for various reasons. And, human's eye likes when roads are constantly wriggling, it gives more natural look to roads.

CrazyCyrodilicCat
Posts: 19
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:59 am

Re: Roads of Daggerfall

Post by CrazyCyrodilicCat » Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:02 am

Skipper wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:39 pm
jayhova wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:53 pm
I'm not a developer. I'm a guy who has read a bit on ancient roads and how and why they were built.
Keep in mind, the game is not real, and it does not have to follow most of real rules.
Also, you want to keep an algorithm as simple as possible, getting somehow believable result at the same time.
Throw away everything, except few rules that make sense for a game and fit into it.
1. Roads connect places. This is good rule. It fits into game concept and allows to explore the world without need to constantly check your map. You just follow a path defined by road and you end up somewhere - a city, or other settlement type, or ruins, or tomb, or camp, whatever point of interest you want.
2. There should be various roads (not many types), e.g. stone roads between big cities, dirt roads leading to smaller settlements, and abandoned variations of both types for ruins and wild, secret or hidden places.
3. Roads cross each other sometimes. Period.
4. Roads are not straight lines, for various reasons. And, human's eye likes when roads are constantly wriggling, it gives more natural look to roads.
IMO roads must have some logic.

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Jay_H
Posts: 2710
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:54 am

Re: Roads of Daggerfall

Post by Jay_H » Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:24 am

Here's a quick drawing of a hub-and-spokes model for roads.

Image

The yellow roads connect major cities in the region. The red roads are smaller and reach out from the cities to the lesser settlements. The idea is that everyone out in the ranches and temples will occasionally go to the nearest major city for the uncommon goods they need.

This would provide a model that's not calculation-intensive for large regions, and provide the player a guarantee that each little road is going to at least lead somewhere interesting within a few kilometers. I think players should find the roads to be logical enough to be immersive, but also purposeful. There's some appeal to just dropping all the quests every once in a while and saying, "I'm gonna follow this road as far as it takes me and camp by the roadside as I go."

charlieg
Posts: 55
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2015 1:12 pm

Re: Roads of Daggerfall

Post by charlieg » Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:26 am

That's a good idea. Would also make it easy to e.g. add signs to show where a road leads.

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Kayzee
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:39 am

Re: Roads of Daggerfall

Post by Kayzee » Tue Apr 23, 2019 4:06 am

You know, one of the things I really liked about Arena is how interesting the wilderness could be, with long roads leading to little villages and inns and farmsteads and things all over the place. So yeah, I think having roads in Daggerfall would be super neato! Though I wonder about something. In Arena, it seems like little random locations are placed along roads and at intersections. In Daggerfall, locations are pretty much scattered about randomly. So I kind of wonder if it might be better to use Arena's fast travel map (come to think of it, If you look at High Rock's map in Arena and the map in Daggerfall they don't quite match up do they?) as a base to create a basic road network, randomly create subnetworks and redistribute locations based on that? Would make a lot more sense for inns and small towns at least.

I kinda think it would be nice to rearrange a lot of stuff anyway, like making port cities like Daggerfall actually at the shore and have a docks area, but that's just wishful thinking. I donno. I mean since a lot of vanilla Daggerfall's world was randomly cobbled together anyway I don't particularity care that much about the world being 100% the same. Might even be nice if there were a lot of it that even changed from playthough to playthrough, but let's not go crazy here. :P

Regardless I like the idea of using Arena's fast travel map as a base to figure out how major areas are connected, and work from there. Arena is basically the blueprint for the whole series after all, and it does have clearly marked roads on it's travel map, so why not use them?

hedgelord
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri May 31, 2019 5:50 pm

Re: Roads of Daggerfall

Post by hedgelord » Fri May 31, 2019 7:31 pm

Did Uncanny_Valley ever release the original roadEditor tool? If we had that to start with it would be a lot easier that starting from scratch.

hedgelord
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri May 31, 2019 5:50 pm

Re: Roads of Daggerfall

Post by hedgelord » Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:13 pm

I started working on another implementation of the road network in Daggerfall. I broke the locations into four categories, marking them as Major, Standard, Minor, or Offroad locations.

For now, Major locations include only major cities, while standard and minor locations are for smaller towns, taverns, and other things like that. I'm connecting the Major locations using the algorithm that hurleybird described, to make a series of major roads throughout the world. Once that's done, I'm planning on using another algorithm to connect the standard and minor locations to the bigger cities in a system of smaller roads.


Here's my first attempt at the major roads of Daggerfall
Image
That's my first time trying to post an image so sorry if it doesn't work.

hurleybird
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:00 am

Re: Roads of Daggerfall

Post by hurleybird » Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:15 pm

Hmm, looks like something isn't quite working right there.

hedgelord
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri May 31, 2019 5:50 pm

Re: Roads of Daggerfall

Post by hedgelord » Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:24 pm

Yeah, there's a lot of steps where I could've implemented something wrong, so I've been debugging trying to figure out what's going wrong.

hurleybird
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:00 am

Re: Roads of Daggerfall

Post by hurleybird » Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:23 pm

Here's the source file from Dominus Galaxia, if that helps you:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1qcs11xqd473x ... en.cs?dl=0

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