Re: Roads of Daggerfall
Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:07 pm
Does anybody know if Uncanny_Valley uploaded the roadmapReader he was talking about, or how you would paint the road textures in the world?
My thought in making a set of rules was to to some extent break the problem down logically, so that a mathematical algorithm could be applied.hedgelord wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:50 pm @hurleybird thanks a ton for the source code, it's helping a lot! I've already noticed a couple problems (I forgot to sort the roads by length, for one).
There's still some problems but it's getting better. The big issue I have right now is that if we have two clusters of towns next to each other, we end up with a lot of parallel roads next to each other.
jayhova wrote: ↑Sat Jun 08, 2019 8:51 pm
Over time city states and the larger settlements in their provinces will establish networks of roads that join together.
...
- Roads are only as straight as obvious terrain features allow (hills, valleys ravines, rivers, etc.)
- Roads are only as straight as non-obvious terrain features allow (quality of ground to be built on)
- Roads have a economic cost and must be paid for with a return on investment. Roads are built to be as short as possible without imposing a substantial economic penalty.
- Roads are, often, not planned in a uniform way and are constructed generally, one at a time, decades or centuries apart. New roads join old roads.
- The path that a road must follow is limited by the grade. The economic viability of a road is limited by this. Steeper grades limit the use of fewer/heavier wagons carrying more goods. This may eliminate the ability to transport goods like refined iron, etc.
All good points, but missing the major impetus for why *empires* specifically built road networks: Troop deployment.jayhova wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:43 am ...
Edit: As I think about it more it seems very likely that Tiber Septim would have made sure to connect very impressive roads from the provincial capitals to the Imperial. He would have wished the rulers under him to see Imperial power projected and make it clear 'These are the roads down which my armies shall march.'. He would at the same time have wished to espouse the benefits of good roads to his subject kingdoms.
- Roads are only as straight as obvious terrain features allow (hills, valleys ravines, rivers, etc.)
- Roads are only as straight as non-obvious terrain features allow (quality of ground to be built on)
- Roads have a economic cost and must be paid for with a return on investment. Roads are built to be as short as possible without imposing a substantial economic penalty.
- Roads are, often, not planned in a uniform way and are constructed generally, one at a time, decades or centuries apart. New roads join old roads.
- The path that a road must follow is limited by the grade. The economic viability of a road is limited by this. Steeper grades limit the use of fewer/heavier wagons carrying more goods. This may eliminate the ability to transport goods like refined iron, etc.
Since the building of roads is heavily biased by political will, roads will be funded unevenly across political boundaries.
So, additionally:- Roads are politically funded. Roads inside a a province will receive funding at a significantly higher rate (perhaps 2x) than roads leading outside the province.
- Inter-provincial roads will favor roads with the shortest link between capitals
- Imperial roads will favor the shortest link between provincial capitals and the imperial province. (this might be possible to ignore)
Some interesting differences between between Tiber Septum's Empire and the Roman Empire. The Roman Empire had external threats that had to be constantly contended with. Tiber Septum on the other hand had conquered or otherwise incorporated all the lands of Tamriel into his empire. This made it so there was less actual need to move troops through these lands however it would have been important to impress upon his new subject kings his ability to do so. He would have been largely concerned with the city-states that governed his provinces. It's interesting how very laissez-faire the imperial government is and clearly Tiber Septum was less willing to allow the infighting between his subjects than later Emperors would be. However, it is clear that the kings of the city states were largely left to their own devices to handle their affairs.jedidia wrote: ↑Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:23 am
All good points, but missing the major impetus for why *empires* specifically built road networks: Troop deployment.
While the elder scrolls are culturally modeled more on medieval times than anything else, the existence of a central empire still holding the continent together makes it politically significantly different. In effect, Tamriel is built on the idea "what if the roman empire didn't dissolve until the late medieval period" (and also "what if there was magic and monsters", obviously).
And the major reason why Rome built roads was military. For one to quickly deploy troops inside their own borders in case there was an uprising that was too much to deal with by local garrisons (Spartacus being a prominent example), and for the other to quickly deploy troops, supplies and reinforcements to the border to support ongoing campaigns.
Unfortunately just connect the dots while it sounds good is not a tenable solution. The problem of routes is actually very hard to contend with. This is one of the delivery truck problems. Turns out that just brute force solving the problem of the best delivery routes for UPS or Fedex takes more computing power than exists. These types of routing problems are akin to the traveling salesman problem. It sounds like an easy to solve problem, but it isn't.King of Worms wrote: ↑Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:19 pm what about just connecting the dots?
seriously, with all these rules, political reasons, moon phases and stellar constelations being the deciding factors, it leads nowhere.
Use the algo the guy provided few pages back, it connects the dots nicely.
I'm all for making things simple. A thought occurred to me, though. 'Having no roads is simple. You don't have to do anything, it's already there.' For some reason, somebody would like to try and add roads anyway... saying 'simple' seems simple, but it's not that simple...
I know, I know, I'll try to keep it short.King of Worms wrote: ↑Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:02 pm walls of texts will not solve this task, ever, unless its a actual code...