Skills anyone?

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Feralwarlord
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Re: Skills anyone?

Post by Feralwarlord » Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:17 am

Gaggerballz wrote: Thanks, I certainly wasn't expecting anyone to notice my rambling so quickly! :D Personally I've never played any of the Fallout games (although FO 1/2 are on my bucket list) so I'm not familiar with their perk systems, although I've heard nothing but good things about them so I assume their perk systems are well designed from a classic CRPG perspective, which I would have no issue with. I just generally object to the more modern perk systems from games like Skyrim, which basically are a lame attempt to pass off action games as having some "rpg" elements and depth of character development. Even the perks in Oblivion seemed like a tacked-on gimmick at best, and while they are far less objectionable than Skyrim's system, IMO Daggerfall's combat and gameplay just isn't player-skill action oriented enough to warrant their inclusion. Daggerfall at heart is a classic RPG in the sense that everything is based on hidden dice rolls as opposed to player reflexes, and while it's possible a perk system could be crafted to benefit this and increase gameplay depth, such a system would need to be designed with a completely different approach than that taken in later TES titles and modern games.
the old fallout games also have dice rolls, at least partially I mean you can critically fail and it sends your weapon flying out of your hands (while amusing its also a pain in the ass)

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Jay_H
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Re: Skills anyone?

Post by Jay_H » Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:39 am

Welcome to the forums Gaggerballz! :)
Gaggerballz wrote:For me personally, I would be VERY hesitant to remove, ahem "streamline"cough cough any skills from the game, Bethesda and Todd Howard have seen to that plenty over the ensuing 20 years since DF was published and I would be sick at the thought of the dark course of modern AAA games being brought to DFU.
I believe people come to see that I have a lot of very ambitious, and sometimes out-of-touch, ideas for DFU. The streamlining idea was one of them, based generally on how frustrating it was to fill 12 character skills when I only used like 6 for an entire character :)
Gaggerballz wrote:Even the more conceptually cool but practically useless skills like the languages I would much rather see somehow tweaked to have some meaningful in-game purpose rather than outright nixed. A few of the skill combinations from MW such as combining running/swimming into athletics and climbing/jumping into acrobatics would work fine and makes some sense.
I think our main impediment is the creativity gap. A well-rounded language system, and a way to make every skill in Daggerfall meaningful and worthwhile, would make the whole game feel really robust. Since we haven't figured out a way to do that (and it looks to us very hard to do), I think several of us have thought of alternatives. I would certainly make building rather than cutting from Daggerfall my first priority, if we could figure out how.
Gaggerballz wrote:As I mentioned earlier, a couple skills I feel that should be added if possible would be armor skills. These were an almost necessary addition that MW got right IMO. In fact, after years of not playing DF I recently did another playthrough and was shocked when I realized the game didn't have armor skills, they seem like such a logical and natural integration to the game. In fact, as I believe has been discussed further in the armors thread, the entire armor system in DF is a bit wonky to say the least, which MW later improved (while adding a ton of its own new wonkiness :D ), and could stand some polishing.
I expect that to be a part of Daggerfall's D&D heritage. I'm very unfamiliar with D&D mechanics but I don't expect armor skills to be a large part of character development. I assume their addition to TES 3-4 were to try to validate every character path equally, which is something we could say Daggerfall was weaker about.
Gaggerballz wrote:The only change I would like to see to these existing systems if any would be to make starting attributes/skills lower and advancement more difficult, as it is a tad too easy in vanilla DF/MW to not only become a "jack of all trades" but a master, although nowhere near to the level of later games. Likewise, some way to balance/improve stealth and magic to make them more viable as alternative play styles would be welcome.
I agree. I'm always amazed that within about 3 days of playing I can already have a level 10 master wizard who can mow down all of Tamriel. The difficulty will be in ensuring new players don't get shut out by excessive difficulty. In some cases, like Skyrim's Requiem mod, the high level of difficulty is an attractor and not a distractor, and I think that's a good concept to aim for.
Try over 90 all-new quests in the first Daggerfall Unity Quest Pack.

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Gaggerballz
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Re: Skills anyone?

Post by Gaggerballz » Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:49 am

Jay_H wrote:Welcome to the forums Gaggerballz! :)
Gaggerballz wrote:For me personally, I would be VERY hesitant to remove, ahem "streamline"cough cough any skills from the game, Bethesda and Todd Howard have seen to that plenty over the ensuing 20 years since DF was published and I would be sick at the thought of the dark course of modern AAA games being brought to DFU.
I believe people come to see that I have a lot of very ambitious, and sometimes out-of-touch, ideas for DFU. The streamlining idea was one of them, based generally on how frustrating it was to fill 12 character skills when I only used like 6 for an entire character :)
Gaggerballz wrote:Even the more conceptually cool but practically useless skills like the languages I would much rather see somehow tweaked to have some meaningful in-game purpose rather than outright nixed. A few of the skill combinations from MW such as combining running/swimming into athletics and climbing/jumping into acrobatics would work fine and makes some sense.
I think our main impediment is the creativity gap. A well-rounded language system, and a way to make every skill in Daggerfall meaningful and worthwhile, would make the whole game feel really robust. Since we haven't figured out a way to do that (and it looks to us very hard to do), I think several of us have thought of alternatives. I would certainly make building rather than cutting from Daggerfall my first priority, if we could figure out how.
Gaggerballz wrote:As I mentioned earlier, a couple skills I feel that should be added if possible would be armor skills. These were an almost necessary addition that MW got right IMO. In fact, after years of not playing DF I recently did another playthrough and was shocked when I realized the game didn't have armor skills, they seem like such a logical and natural integration to the game. In fact, as I believe has been discussed further in the armors thread, the entire armor system in DF is a bit wonky to say the least, which MW later improved (while adding a ton of its own new wonkiness :D ), and could stand some polishing.
I expect that to be a part of Daggerfall's D&D heritage. I'm very unfamiliar with D&D mechanics but I don't expect armor skills to be a large part of character development. I assume their addition to TES 3-4 were to try to validate every character path equally, which is something we could say Daggerfall was weaker about.
Gaggerballz wrote:The only change I would like to see to these existing systems if any would be to make starting attributes/skills lower and advancement more difficult, as it is a tad too easy in vanilla DF/MW to not only become a "jack of all trades" but a master, although nowhere near to the level of later games. Likewise, some way to balance/improve stealth and magic to make them more viable as alternative play styles would be welcome.
I agree. I'm always amazed that within about 3 days of playing I can already have a level 10 master wizard who can mow down all of Tamriel. The difficulty will be in ensuring new players don't get shut out by excessive difficulty. In some cases, like Skyrim's Requiem mod, the high level of difficulty is an attractor and not a distractor, and I think that's a good concept to aim for.

Howdy good sir, and thanks for the in depth reply and welcome! Just for the record, I certainly didn't mean any offense to anyone or their ideas with my original post, I was just arguing for my perspective, as this issue is something I'm very passionate about(as I'm sure we all are). With regards to the language skills, while I love the idea in theory, in actual practice it was essentially useless and while I still feel it could have been tweaked, perhaps simplified and put to some immersive and roleplaying use in MW, for DF if anything was to be cut as superfluous they would be my first choice.

As for armor skills and D&D, while I never actually played any pen and paper tabletop games(I grew up in the boonies :D ), I played many of the console and CRPG D&D games of the time and can attest that armor skills were not present, the only variance was that certain classes were limited in what types of armor they could use. The same goes for weapons as well actually, the D&D games and system of the time to my knowledge actually didn't feature skills at all, your class determined what you could and couldn't do completely. For example, any warrior could use any weapon equally, sword mace, axe etc. The weapons themselves had varying dice roll values. Ditto for the various armor types. That was one of the quantum leaps Daggerfall made and one of the many reasons I fell in love with it back in the day, the addition of unique skills and most importantly, linking the use of those skills to player class and experience gain, and doing away with the standard rpg D&D system of experience points completely. While seemingly obvious now, at the time this was an absolutely REVOLUTIONARY concept and advancement of RPG mechanics, and one that would quickly become almost the new standard, with even D&D abandoning their old rules and updating to a more in depth DF/MW approach a few years later. Again, to me, after playing MW and the later games for years, I had glossed over in my memory the fact that DF actually didn't incorporate armor skills, as their implementation in MW seemed so natural and an obvious advancement from the groundwork laid in DF. A final aside on aside on this topic, Arena, if memory serves, actually didn't utilize DF's groundbreaking skills system either(although it did feature the classic 7 attributes) and followed the antiquated D&D system of experience points. After experiencing the DF system, however, as an avid rpg fan, it was impossible to go back. Daggerfall brilliantly improved upon these mechanics and added such freedom and depth to the rpg gaming experience it was really a complete game changer.

I agree completely about the concept of the Requiem mod for Skyrim, I would just add that happily, since DF is an actual honest to God RPG in the first place, nothing anywhere near the extent of Requiem is needed, just IMO some minor adjustments here and there provided by 20 years hindsight ;) . As for new players being turned off by excessive difficulty, they can play Skyrim :lol: . Seriously though, who HASN'T died in Privateer's Hold at least once?

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Jay_H
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Re: Skills anyone?

Post by Jay_H » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:39 pm

Gaggerballz wrote:Howdy good sir, and thanks for the in depth reply and welcome! Just for the record, I certainly didn't mean any offense to anyone or their ideas with my original post, I was just arguing for my perspective, as this issue is something I'm very passionate about(as I'm sure we all are).
Do not worry. We all have strong opinions here, and we all treat each other with respect. It's a great thing Interkarma has created :)
Try over 90 all-new quests in the first Daggerfall Unity Quest Pack.

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Gaggerballz
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Re: Skills anyone?

Post by Gaggerballz » Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:31 am

Jay_H wrote:
Gaggerballz wrote:Howdy good sir, and thanks for the in depth reply and welcome! Just for the record, I certainly didn't mean any offense to anyone or their ideas with my original post, I was just arguing for my perspective, as this issue is something I'm very passionate about(as I'm sure we all are).
Do not worry. We all have strong opinions here, and we all treat each other with respect. It's a great thing Interkarma has created :)
Absolutely :)

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Midknightprince
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Re: Skills anyone?

Post by Midknightprince » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:50 am

Thats a hell of a first post.
Welcome to the forums.

I think enchanting is tied to what ever magic school your trying to embue the item with.
The better the magic skill the better the enchantment.
So an enchanting skill would be kina redundant.

Most of these changes you talk about involve coding it in im thinking (like armor skills etc).
I dont think Gavin is gonna implement that stuff (could be wrong), and I have no idea how a mod could change this stuff on the fly like that.
Good ideas tho.
I was taken aback by the lack of armor skills in DF too when I first came back to it (yes we were spoiled).
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Usernamicus
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Re: Skills anyone?

Post by Usernamicus » Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:40 pm

Hi, new here.

As for Language skills, I suppose you could add the ability to have that type of monster decide to abandon fighting you and run away at low health based on a Language skill check. Perhaps with a message that pops up that reads something like "(creature) begs for it's life and cowers in terror" or something.

Maybe a few quests that have Language skill checks that, if succeeded, will open up new paths to them. Such as the Giant Killing quest for the Fighter's Guild quest allowing you to convince the Giant to leave peacefully if you calm it down (whether it be through sneaking up and talking before the fight or having the Giant concede defeat mid-battle). Of course you wouldn't get as much rep from the Fighter's Guild if you chose the pacifist route.

That's about all I can think of atm.

Oh! And I would be 100% on board with the addition of Medium Armor & Unarmored skills. :D

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LorrMaster42
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Re: Skills anyone?

Post by LorrMaster42 » Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:48 pm

I would personally like to see the skill system be even more complex than it is in Daggerfall. For example, archery could have a bunch of different smaller skills that affect draw speed, accuracy, damage, movement speed while the bow is drawn, etc. Some skills could be expanded upon in this manner, while some of the other less useful skills could be grouped together in a single branch, like the language skills. I just think that would be a more Daggerfall-like way of handling progression: everything being overly complicated, but with lots of depth to back it up.

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