Cracking Open Combat

Discuss modding questions and implementation details.
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l3lessed
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Re: Cracking Open Combat

Post by l3lessed »

One last thought for the day. Using both weapon weight and range stats, I may be able to extrapolate and assign a good fatigue value to each weapon. Makes since in my head, but will see once it is coded in.

Point being, the longer and heavier the weapon, the more energy it takes to get going and stop. Basic physics. I could use this logic to create something like a base cost of 5 stamina or something and then do this. TotalStaminaCost = 5 + range+weight,

Of course, that is just an example and would not work or scale well in the game, but you get the idea now, right?

According to the official wiki, armor rating in traditional dagger fall does not do damage mitigation at all. It merely adds to your agility rating to increase your chance of dodging or deflecting an attack. It was a rudimentary way to implement advanced combat mechanics through all school D&D chance systems.

If you have been around long enough, you quickly realize how all RPGs from this time period and before largely are just visual copies of D&D, as that is what developers had to pull from. D&D being diced based is all chance based, and is the reason daggerfall went this way. The original developers were highly into D&D and other table tops.

None of daggerfall has to be this way. It was a developer choice based on the game theories, design, and understanding of the time.

However, I am only two days in, so who knows what craziness I will find myself banging my head against in another week or two.

If I can just get range and speed differences in, that alone would make a huge difference for me. I'll worry about the more crazy stuff after.
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l3lessed
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Re: Cracking Open Combat

Post by l3lessed »

And yes, dodge would be a simple boolean state coupled with a invuln state, crouch, and a quick movement one direction. Once all parts of the dodge are triggered in the code and cleared, the state would click back to false again and start a cd.

Also, dodge being built into the game doesn't have to be game breaking. It could be high risk / high reward. Cost a lot of stamina at first and doesn't move you to far. However, if you dump points into certain skills, the cost could come down and distance increased. This way, every character can try dodging like any real human being, but only those trained can do it well every time and not worry about messing it up that much.
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Jay_H
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Re: Cracking Open Combat

Post by Jay_H »

My idea for blocking was to give it graded time windows. It could reduce damage based on timing:

0.0 to 0.15 seconds within click: 100% blocked
0.151 to 0.35 seconds within click: 75% blocked
0.351 to 0.5 seconds within click: 50% blocked
0.51 to 0.65 seconds within click: 25% blocked

I dunno if that's useful but I thought it'd be a meaningful way of mixing interaction and reward. If you time it really badly, it could do extra damage (110-125%).
Farewell DFU community! My time here has been a joy.

Ommamar
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Re: Cracking Open Combat

Post by Ommamar »

Jay_H wrote: Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:37 pm My idea for blocking was to give it graded time windows. It could reduce damage based on timing:

0.0 to 0.15 seconds within click: 100% blocked
0.151 to 0.35 seconds within click: 75% blocked
0.351 to 0.5 seconds within click: 50% blocked
0.51 to 0.65 seconds within click: 25% blocked

I dunno if that's useful but I thought it'd be a meaningful way of mixing interaction and reward. If you time it really badly, it could do extra damage (110-125%).

l3lessed wrote: Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:26 pm And yes, dodge would be a simple boolean state coupled with a invuln state, crouch, and a quick movement one direction. Once all parts of the dodge are triggered in the code and cleared, the state would click back to false again and start a cd.

Also, dodge being built into the game doesn't have to be game breaking. It could be high risk / high reward. Cost a lot of stamina at first and doesn't move you to far. However, if you dump points into certain skills, the cost could come down and distance increased. This way, every character can try dodging like any real human being, but only those trained can do it well every time and not worry about messing it up that much.
Last edited by Ommamar on Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

Jay_H
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Re: Cracking Open Combat

Post by Jay_H »

Ommamar wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:07 am There are some attacks that are harder to read then others though for instance a rat and a bat don't have very good attack animations, so using a shield to block them with this method might be very difficult making a low level mob harder to block then other mobs with more pronounced attacks. How would you work it with a multiple attack animation?
It's all in the skill of learning it, I say. It's like Dark Souls. Your skill in the game is memorizing each enemy's attack patterns, attack speed, and so on. (And it would make sense for a person to have an easier time defending a human's swipe than a bat's bite.)

As for multiple attacks, they could each count as a hit to be blocked. A good enough player will do so on each hit.
Farewell DFU community! My time here has been a joy.

Ommamar
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Re: Cracking Open Combat

Post by Ommamar »

Jay_H wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:34 am
Ommamar wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:07 am There are some attacks that are harder to read then others though for instance a rat and a bat don't have very good attack animations, so using a shield to block them with this method might be very difficult making a low level mob harder to block then other mobs with more pronounced attacks. How would you work it with a multiple attack animation?
It's all in the skill of learning it, I say. It's like Dark Souls. Your skill in the game is memorizing each enemy's attack patterns, attack speed, and so on. (And it would make sense for a person to have an easier time defending a human's swipe than a bat's bite.)

As for multiple attacks, they could each count as a hit to be blocked. A good enough player will do so on each hit.
Last edited by Ommamar on Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

Jay_H
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Re: Cracking Open Combat

Post by Jay_H »

No need. Each attack animation can carry out fully; the damage would be blocked.

Of course this is just my imagination. |3lessed is going to have to do things within technical feasibility and possibility.
Farewell DFU community! My time here has been a joy.

l3lessed
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Re: Cracking Open Combat

Post by l3lessed »

I personally like attacks to recoil on hitting physical objects of any type. It feels natural to me.

I can't answer the question about the three attacks though. I need to see how it works in the files and code.

Also, interesting discovery. In EnemyAttack.cs, It may be that all enemies are set to only attack at the default attack range or less.

If this is what it seems to be, which is a universal default for how close enemies have to be to attempt an attack, it could allow for some more variety in enemy combat. Enemies could take into consideration their weapons range, if it can be pulled from the item template data, so they keep some distance between you when attacking.

Cool side note, enemies already consider your approach speed when deciding to attack you or not. Uses a coded senses engine to create and simulate artificial senses for enemies. Neat, huh? :o
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Ommamar
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Re: Cracking Open Combat

Post by Ommamar »

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Last edited by Ommamar on Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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mikeprichard
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Re: Cracking Open Combat

Post by mikeprichard »

l3lessed - I first wanted to say how great it is to see you taking the initiative to get into these mechanics. Whatever you end up doing here, it will be pioneering work for similar efforts down the road. Cheers!

On a point Ommamar just raised re: Stealth mechanics, since it's likely something you'd eventually be interested in for your own purposes, and you also seem to know your way around the code, I'm hoping I can leverage your knowledge. I'm trying to update the UESP wiki pages for classic Daggerfall (see viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2514) to correct vague/inaccurate information. I understand from Interkarma that DFU replicates exactly classic's Stealth behavior, but the point I'm trying to 100% confirm here from the DFU code is the following (paraphrased from the other topic). Would you have any insight into this? I'd greatly appreciate any comments/direction you could share:

While trying to determine how Stealth mechanics (i.e. detection of player by enemies related to the player's Stealth skill) work in classic/DFU, I found this DFU code (https://github.com/Interkarma/daggerfal ... es.cs#L573). I have no idea how to correctly read this, but what I'm trying to clearly determine is whether the Stealth skill is completely "deactivated" when the player is running - i.e. whether it's only active when walking, sneaking, and/or crouching (all of which slow the player as noted by Interkarma, and which I'm guessing "playerMotor.IsMovingLessThanHalfSpeed" is referring to, though I'm not sure how that line actually translates to running vs. walking vs. sneaking vs. crouching in-game(?)). If Stealth is in fact not operative when the player is running, I'll need to tweak the UESP page again for classic/DFU.

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