Guild services that sell items & potions

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Hazelnut
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Guild services that sell items & potions

Post by Hazelnut » Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:52 pm

I'm starting to think about how buying magic items and potions will be implemented. I expected it to work like shop shelves, but just tested in classic and it's quite different.

Magic items seem to always have the same stock in any particular mages guild with the exception of armour & weapon materials which are (probably) level dependent. Must use some kind of deterministic algorithm, or maybe some location data from maps.bsa defines it. Either we will need to figure out how classic does this or create a new mechanism more like shelves.

Potions seem to be a random selection of potions that is regenerated every time the player clicks on 'Buy Potions'. This is what I will implement for now. I wonder if this was intended design or they ran out of time to anything more refined. Would we want to change this for DFU? Personally, since potions are essentially magic for non-mage characters, I think it might be quite annoying not to be able to purchase what you need for a trip without doing the rounds of several temples or DB halls - so am inclined to leave it this way.

Although, potion magic has a really big vacancy of an equivalent to recall spell. This is such a game changing utility I think many players will see magery as a must have due to the lack of an alternative to recall. Seems quite a shame from a RP POV even if chugging a potion to teleport seems quite far fetched. Thoughts?
See my mod code for examples of how to change various aspects of DFU: https://github.com/ajrb/dfunity-mods

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Interkarma
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Re: Guild services that sell items & potions

Post by Interkarma » Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:49 pm

Hazelnut wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:52 pm
Magic items seem to always have the same stock in any particular mages guild with the exception of armour & weapon materials which are (probably) level dependent. Must use some kind of deterministic algorithm, or maybe some location data from maps.bsa defines it. Either we will need to figure out how classic does this or create a new mechanism more like shelves.
That's really interesting. Daggerfall seems full of interesting little mysteries like this one. Please feel free to implement however convenient at first to keep moving, it can always be iterated on later.
Hazelnut wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:52 pm
Potions seem to be a random selection of potions that is regenerated every time the player clicks on 'Buy Potions'. This is what I will implement for now. I wonder if this was intended design or they ran out of time to anything more refined. Would we want to change this for DFU? Personally, since potions are essentially magic for non-mage characters, I think it might be quite annoying not to be able to purchase what you need for a trip without doing the rounds of several temples or DB halls - so am inclined to leave it this way.
Makes sense, I'm happy for it to stay that way as well.
Hazelnut wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:52 pm
Although, potion magic has a really big vacancy of an equivalent to recall spell. This is such a game changing utility I think many players will see magery as a must have due to the lack of an alternative to recall. Seems quite a shame from a RP POV even if chugging a potion to teleport seems quite far fetched. Thoughts?
I don't mind if this effect is added to potion lineup later. Otherwise, non-casters can always use a magic item to get the same effect.

Al-Khwarizmi
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Re: Guild services that sell items & potions

Post by Al-Khwarizmi » Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:50 pm

My personal opinions as a player:

I'd probably activate an option to have something more realistic than a randomized potion list every time the "buy potions" button is clicked. I'm quite a purist but also a suckler for immersion, lol. Randomizing the list on each click kills immersion big time. Would it be possible to have both posibilities? One where it is randomized each time (for historical preservation reasons), and another version where it is randomized e.g. each in-game day. That would be more realistic.

As for recall, a potion of teleport indeed sounds weird, but a wand of teleport, or another magical item such as a jewel, etc. would feel par for the course in a magical world and would also serve the purpose of making recall available to non-mages. One option could be to add recall to the possible effects of magic items (in the original game it isn't there, is it?). Another option (to make it more accessible) would be to have someone in the mage's guild sell a "standard" magic item (e.g. emerald of recall), that would turn recall into a commodity, although they should charge a hefty fee as recalling shouldn't be cheap for non-casters. All of this should also be optional because it would change the original game quite a bit!

BTW, something that should be well thought out is how to handle magic repair (or lack thereof...). That particular aspect was quite a dumpster fire in the original game.

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Hazelnut
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Re: Guild services that sell items & potions

Post by Hazelnut » Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:57 pm

Interkarma wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:49 pm
Hazelnut wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:52 pm
Magic items seem to always have the same stock in any particular mages guild with the exception of armour & weapon materials which are (probably) level dependent. Must use some kind of deterministic algorithm, or maybe some location data from maps.bsa defines it. Either we will need to figure out how classic does this or create a new mechanism more like shelves.
That's really interesting. Daggerfall seems full of interesting little mysteries like this one. Please feel free to implement however convenient at first to keep moving, it can always be iterated on later.
I'm simply going to leave it as it is for now. I suspect this will take some binary analysis to figure out.
Interkarma wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:49 pm
Hazelnut wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:52 pm
Although, potion magic has a really big vacancy of an equivalent to recall spell. This is such a game changing utility I think many players will see magery as a must have due to the lack of an alternative to recall. Seems quite a shame from a RP POV even if chugging a potion to teleport seems quite far fetched. Thoughts?
I don't mind if this effect is added to potion lineup later. Otherwise, non-casters can always use a magic item to get the same effect.
Can you get items of recall? I wouldn't know since I have so little experience playing classic. I certainly didn't see one while testing tonight. Even if it's not in classic, I agree with Al-Khwarizmi that a magic item of some sort makes a lot more sense than a teleportation potion. :-)

Regarding magic item repair, I had assumed it was that way by design to balance things. Again, don't know enough about how the more advanced game systems work TBH.
See my mod code for examples of how to change various aspects of DFU: https://github.com/ajrb/dfunity-mods

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Interkarma
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Re: Guild services that sell items & potions

Post by Interkarma » Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:05 pm

I'm not sure you can get items of recall in classic, and this effect doesn't seem to be offered by the item maker (unless I missed it). I just mean there's nothing technically stopping this from working if you preferred an item over a potion, since either would be a QoL addition to the game.

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RH666
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Re: Guild services that sell items & potions

Post by RH666 » Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:35 pm

Hell yeah, Boots of Recall. How awesome would that be?

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Interkarma
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Re: Guild services that sell items & potions

Post by Interkarma » Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:36 pm

RH666 wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:35 pm
Hell yeah, Boots of Recall. How awesome would that be?
And they must be Daedric red. There's no place like home!

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RH666
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Re: Guild services that sell items & potions

Post by RH666 » Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:39 pm

Interkarma wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:36 pm
RH666 wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:35 pm
Hell yeah, Boots of Recall. How awesome would that be?
And they must be Daedric red. There's no place like home!
YES!!

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Deepfighter
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Re: Guild services that sell items & potions

Post by Deepfighter » Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:55 am

Hazelnut wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:57 pm
Can you get items of recall? I wouldn't know since I have so little experience playing classic. I certainly didn't see one while testing tonight.
Interkarma wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:05 pm
I'm not sure you can get items of recall in classic, and this effect doesn't seem to be offered by the item maker (unless I missed it).
If my memory recalls (ha! :D ) it correctly you can enchant any items or weapons with "Recall". UESP seems to confirm this.

But you can't get items with Recall in any pre-generated way. MAGIC.DEF includes all possible magic items (%it indices) which can be found as loot, can be a quest reward or can be brought at magic item merchants. They are named like %it of Featherweight or Cursing %it which are e.g. enchanted with Slowfalling respectively Toxic Cloud. You can't find such %it indice with the "Recall" enchantment, so I suppose there is none (which should explain why you both had no luck in finding one yourself in the game).
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Hazelnut
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Re: Guild services that sell items & potions

Post by Hazelnut » Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:18 am

Deepfighter wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:55 am
Hazelnut wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:57 pm
Can you get items of recall? I wouldn't know since I have so little experience playing classic. I certainly didn't see one while testing tonight.
Interkarma wrote:
Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:05 pm
I'm not sure you can get items of recall in classic, and this effect doesn't seem to be offered by the item maker (unless I missed it).
If my memory recalls (ha! :D ) it correctly you can enchant any items or weapons with "Recall". UESP seems to confirm this.

But you can't get items with Recall in any pre-generated way. MAGIC.DEF includes all possible magic items (%it indices) which can be found as loot, can be a quest reward or can be brought at magic item merchants. They are named like %it of Featherweight or Cursing %it which are e.g. enchanted with Slowfalling respectively Toxic Cloud. You can't find such %it indice with the "Recall" enchantment, so I suppose there is none (which should explain why you both had no luck in finding one yourself in the game).
Good that items of recall are valid classic items, but this means non-mages have to join and get to rank 5 of Julianos temple to have access to the most important utility spell in the game. I think the archaeologists guild will sell magic items of recall... they wont be cheap, but they will provide an alternative to joining the Mages and using the spell. Suggestions for balanced pricing?
See my mod code for examples of how to change various aspects of DFU: https://github.com/ajrb/dfunity-mods

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