Build #139 - NPCs Won't Give Any Info (new character biography related) [RESOLVED]

willershuh
Posts: 30
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:05 pm

Build #139 - NPCs Won't Give Any Info (new character biography related) [RESOLVED]

Post by willershuh » Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:38 pm

OK, I hope I've got everything right here, I tried to narrow it down as much as I can.
Initially I found this on DaggerfallSetup 2.14.1 with a bunch of fixes enabled, but I was able to reproduce with a fresh GOG install too. I assume it's not a vanilla bug, but I didn't try it in vanilla.
Using 64-bit Live Build PreAlpha 0.5 #139 10-Nov-18.

Here are the steps to reproduce:
1. Start a new game.
2. Choose any race/gender.
3. Choose a class that gets you a certain set of biography questions. I chose mage but also reproduced with spellsword and battlemage, and a custom class with a bunch of magic skills set. Didn't try anything else yet.
4. Choose to answer questions for your career path.
5. Choose any combination of answers for most questions (I think...), but these two must be set as follows:
*In between formal study, you spent your time...
[Choose anything except "socializing with aristocrats"]
*You have the most trouble...
[Choose "getting along with others"]
6. Finish off character generation. The rest doesn't matter.

Now, whenever you ask an NPC for any information, they'll hate you and never tell you anything, which makes it pretty hard to get any questing done....
By the way, I think this is the same bug mentioned here. Just like in that link, switching to another character and then loading the bugged save will provide a temporary fix (doesn't stay fixed after exiting the game unfortunately).

User avatar
Interkarma
Posts: 4020
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:51 am

Re: NPCs Won't Give Any Info

Post by Interkarma » Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:02 am

Thanks for report, and welcome to the forums. I also appreciate the time you've taken to reproduce and list steps. :)

willershuh
Posts: 30
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:05 pm

Re: Build #139 - NPCs Won't Give Any Info (new character biography related)

Post by willershuh » Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:08 am

No problem, let me know if you require any more info.

User avatar
numidium3rd
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2018 12:34 am

Re: Build #139 - NPCs Won't Give Any Info (new character biography related)

Post by numidium3rd » Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:59 am

Picking "getting along with others" reduces all your character's reaction rolls by 5. I tried saving, loading another save, then reloading again to see if the reaction roll offset changes but it loads from the save properly. The reaction is also based on factions and social groups so maybe that's changing when you reload. I'll need to dig a bit deeper to see what's happening.

willershuh
Posts: 30
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:05 pm

Re: Build #139 - NPCs Won't Give Any Info (new character biography related)

Post by willershuh » Sat Nov 17, 2018 3:10 pm

Also, maybe it's just me, but when I picked "socializing with aristocrats" the bug didn't occur. Oddly enough it still occurred when I chose "learning streetsmarts" instead.

User avatar
numidium3rd
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2018 12:34 am

Re: Build #139 - NPCs Won't Give Any Info (new character biography related)

Post by numidium3rd » Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:42 am

OK, did some research into this so here's what I know.
Assuming you're getting directions from commoners (the people walking around the city), there are a few biography answers that influence their reactions to you:
"helping others": +10 rep
"socializing with aristocrats": -5 rep
"learning streetsmarts": +2 rep
"getting along with others": -5 to reaction rolls for people in general

As long as you choose "helping others," your reaction rolls with commoners should always start out either positive or neutral. If commoners are unhelpful when you have a negative reaction roll with them then I believe that is expected behavior. The reactions changing when you switch characters and reload is not, however. Unfortunately I still haven't been able to reproduce that particular case. Are your two characters different races/in different regions/different classes? I'm just spitballing at this point, not sure what could be the cause.

willershuh
Posts: 30
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:05 pm

Re: Build #139 - NPCs Won't Give Any Info (new character biography related)

Post by willershuh » Sun Nov 18, 2018 2:32 am

numidium3rd wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:42 am
If commoners are unhelpful when you have a negative reaction roll with them then I believe that is expected behavior.
So I got around to testing this in vanilla DF and it's not expected behavior. NPCs still don't react favorably to me - they give negative greetings - but they will at least tell me where things are if I ask. In DF Unity they won't give any info at all.
numidium3rd wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:42 am
Assuming you're getting directions from commoners (the people walking around the city)
That's correct.
numidium3rd wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:42 am
Are your two characters different races/in different regions/different classes?
Nope, in fact I can do character creation exactly the same for both. The only thing that has to change is the second character's background questions. So if character A has the bug, and character B doesn't, loading A's file from B's game will fix it for A. However, B must be a new character, and you can't save and quit in between. Also, I don't think A's game can be permanently fixed, even by saving it while the fix is active. You would have to make a new B before every session.

This gets messier and messier the more I test it. If I make a character that has "getting along with others" and "socializing with aristocrats", commoners react fine to me. That is, until I save, exit, relaunch, then load. Then that file is bugged as if I never picked "socializing with aristocrats".

I also don't understand why "socializing with aristocrats" fixes the behavior but "learning streetsmarts" doesn't. Based on what you posted I'd think it would be the other way around. Also, if I pick "helping others" and "getting along with others", they still hate me and won't tell me anything. Which is to say, the only option (that I've tested) that fixes their behavior, is "socializing with aristocrats". That is, until I save and exit, at which point the file is lost.

Let me summarize because I feel like this will be really confusing to read. Like in the example before, "A" is a character that has the bug, and "B" is a character that doesn't.
New game -> create B -> load A : fixes the bug (only for that play session).
New game -> create B -> save and exit -> load B -> load A : doesn't fix the bug.

And for the "socializing with aristocrats" part:
New game -> "socializing with aristocrats" and "getting along with others" : no bug.
New game -> "socializing with aristocrats" and "getting along with others" -> save and exit -> load file : bug is present.

Sorry for this mess of a post. I hope it makes sense.
Last edited by willershuh on Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.

BansheeXYZ
Posts: 249
Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2015 8:19 pm

Re: Build #139 - NPCs Won't Give Any Info (new character biography related)

Post by BansheeXYZ » Sun Nov 18, 2018 5:54 am

So I got around to testing this in vanilla DF and it's not expected behavior. NPCs still don't react favorably to me - they give negative greetings - but they will at least tell me where things are if I ask. In DF Unity they won't give any info at all.
Something that needs to be considered here is that there might be a bug in vanilla that isn't being replicated by DFU. We need to compare reputation levels of fresh chars in vanilla vs DFU. If they're the same, we need to figure out why vanilla NPCs are still giving directions. Do direction requests require an even lower negative value to be denied in vanilla? Or is vanilla simply incapable of denying directions due to a bug?

Maybe DFU is just getting the "neutral" behavior wrong in its formulas. It certainly seems like DFU is treating a rep of "0" as being negative.

User avatar
numidium3rd
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2018 12:34 am

Re: Build #139 - NPCs Won't Give Any Info (new character biography related)

Post by numidium3rd » Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:22 pm

willershuh wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 2:32 am
Sorry for this mess of a post. I hope it makes sense.
Your post was quite detailed and helpful, actually.

I noticed a couple of things. First off, the player's social group reputations are not loaded from the save file. That's something I should have taken care of while implementing the biography so I'll handle it. Second, when you choose "learning streetsmarts" it's supposed to increase your rep with commoners and decrease it with nobles but it seems to decrease it for both groups. Clearly the reputation indices are not matching up - another thing for me to tackle.
BansheeXYZ wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 5:54 am
Something that needs to be considered here is that there might be a bug in vanilla that isn't being replicated by DFU. We need to compare reputation levels of fresh chars in vanilla vs DFU. If they're the same, we need to figure out why vanilla NPCs are still giving directions. Do direction requests require an even lower negative value to be denied in vanilla? Or is vanilla simply incapable of denying directions due to a bug?
I've had NPCs refuse to give me info in vanilla before but if I asked several of them then at least one would give me an answer. This implies that there's a bit of randomness involved in whether they react positively or not but I haven't seen any code for that in DFU. There are still some subtle differences between vanilla NPC interactions and those in DFU that need to be worked out eventually.

willershuh
Posts: 30
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:05 pm

Re: Build #139 - NPCs Won't Give Any Info (new character biography related)

Post by willershuh » Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:14 pm

:) I'm glad my post was helpful. I saw you made a PR already, wow. Hope it wasn't too much trouble to deal with.

Post Reply