0.7.2 Player can add both variants of light or darkness powered magery

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ACNAero
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Re: 0.7.2 Player can add both variants of light or darkness powered magery

Post by ACNAero » Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:08 pm

Hmm. How are lycanthropy and vampirism immunities and weaknesses going to work, then? Will those also be a numerical change, or will they override existing weaknesses and resistances entirely?

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Interkarma
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Re: 0.7.2 Player can add both variants of light or darkness powered magery

Post by Interkarma » Sun Jan 20, 2019 10:46 pm

Vampire and lycanthrope racial advantages and disadvantages are unrelated to elemental saving throws. For example, vampires have a blanket immunity to paralysis and disease and no saving throw needs to be rolled.

The changes to elemental saving throws are mainly for handling flag combos such as Magical Immunity with Critical Weakness to Paralysis. Unless you purposefully combine these factors (which was generally considered an exploit in classic), then it works just like classic. This primarily fixes the exploit while still observing what the class creator resistance flags do. It's not that big of a change at the end of the day.

BansheeXYZ
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Re: 0.7.2 Player can add both variants of light or darkness powered magery

Post by BansheeXYZ » Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:42 am

What does "Immunity to Magic" actually cover? I noticed that it's worth the same meter points as less broad immunities like "immunity to Fire".

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Interkarma
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Re: 0.7.2 Player can add both variants of light or darkness powered magery

Post by Interkarma » Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:47 am

The elemental types are Fire, Cold, Poison, Shock, Magic. Immunity to Magic gives the player a 100% saving throw against spells transported by the Magic element. It's the same thing as Immunity to Fire (except for Magic element) which is why it costs the same meter points.

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mikeprichard
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Re: 0.7.2 Player can add both variants of light or darkness powered magery

Post by mikeprichard » Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:24 am

Interkarma - forgive me for being dense and beating a very dead horse, but please confirm I'm correct here: in the new DFU system, immunity to magic will still effectively provide immunity to disease/paralysis/poison, as I believe those three effects are (almost?) always transmitted to the player via a magic-based attack. The change from classic here is simply fixing the old exploit whereby if you took Immunity to Magic together with Low Tolerance/Critical Weakness to Disease/Paralysis/Poison, you would still remain immune to those three effects while drastically lowering the level speed dagger. Yeah?

BansheeXYZ
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Re: 0.7.2 Player can add both variants of light or darkness powered magery

Post by BansheeXYZ » Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:32 am

The elemental types are Fire, Cold, Poison, Shock, Magic. Immunity to Magic gives the player a 100% saving throw against spells transported by the Magic element. It's the same thing as Immunity to Fire (except for Magic element) which is why it costs the same meter points.
Interesting, so... an example spell that falls under the "magic" category would be what, drain and transfer? So a player with immunity to magic but not fire would still take fire damage from a fireball spell?

Forgive me, but it's very 90s to call non-elements "magic". Most people today would read "magic" as "any spell regardless of element".

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Interkarma
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Re: 0.7.2 Player can add both variants of light or darkness powered magery

Post by Interkarma » Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:47 am

mikeprichard wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:24 am
Interkarma - forgive me for being dense and beating a very dead horse, but please confirm I'm correct here: in the new DFU system, immunity to magic will still effectively provide immunity to disease/paralysis/poison, as I believe those three effects are (almost?) always transmitted to the player via a magic-based attack. The change from classic here is simply fixing the old exploit whereby if you took Immunity to Magic together with Low Tolerance/Critical Weakness to Disease/Paralysis/Poison, you would still remain immune to those three effects while drastically lowering the level speed dagger. Yeah?
Immunity to Magic grants player a 100% saving throw against any spell transmitted by the Magic element. Poison is a different element type for purposes of elemental saving throws. For example, Immunity to Magic won't do you a lick of good against the Toxic Cloud spell because it uses the Poison element.

Diseases are transmitted by monster claws and teeth, and non-spell poisons are transmitted by enemy weapons. Neither of these use the Magic element, so Immunity to Magic will give you no particular protection against them.

The main offensive spells that Immunity to Magic will protect you against are Paralysis and Drain Attribute.

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Interkarma
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Re: 0.7.2 Player can add both variants of light or darkness powered magery

Post by Interkarma » Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:51 am

BansheeXYZ wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:32 am
Interesting, so... an example spell that falls under the "magic" category would be what, drain and transfer? So a player with immunity to magic but not fire would still take fire damage from a fireball spell?
Yep, Drain Attribute, Transfer, and Paralysis are probably the only main offensive spells carried by the Magic element. And yeah, a Fire element spell isn't covered by Magic immunity. I think they just used Magic as the "default" element for utility spells that don't really fit another element.

It can be surprising sometimes though. For example, you can make a Charm spell with any element. I remember coming across a few weird possible combos like that when building out core effects and thinking "ok?".

BansheeXYZ wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:32 am
Forgive me, but it's very 90s to call non-elements "magic". Most people today would read "magic" as "any spell regardless of element".
For sure! It confused the hell out me at the start. :)

Al-Khwarizmi
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Re: 0.7.2 Player can add both variants of light or darkness powered magery

Post by Al-Khwarizmi » Mon Jan 21, 2019 9:10 am

Well, if that's the case, people made more sense in the 90s than now...

If I'm immune to magic and I see a fireball being thrown at me, I'd rather be wearing a good flame retardant suit. Because you know, the fire may have been caused by magic, but it's still fire. I don't think physics cares whether it has been created by magic or not. Unless you asume that magically-created fire is not actual fire but just a magical illusion that visually looks like fire (and happens to do damage, too), but I wouldn't buy that.

To me, magic being a different element (of which magic missiles, etc. are made of) makes perfect sense.

Then of course, I grew up in the 90s...

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mikeprichard
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Re: 0.7.2 Player can add both variants of light or darkness powered magery

Post by mikeprichard » Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:10 pm

Yeah, the "magic" label can be confusing, but you've cleared things up - thanks!

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