0.10.4: Magic item degrading

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Jay_H
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0.10.4: Magic item degrading

Post by Jay_H » Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:21 pm

A user on Discord pointed out that "when held" magic items aren't degrading over time. In DFU it appears to only occur when equipping them I think?
The classic UESP says:
For enchantments that are used as long as the item is equipped, following rule applies: The health decreases by 105 every time the item is equipped plus an additional decrease of 1 for every in-game minute the item is equipped. For example if one equips an item for one in-game hour, it has an overall health decrease of 105 + 60 = 165.
I wasn't sure if there was any further clarification on this matter, or anything disproving the classic wiki, though my memory isn't great.

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Interkarma
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Re: 0.10.4: Magic item degrading

Post by Interkarma » Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:50 pm

I tested the UESP figures when implementing CastWhenHeld enchantment. Those numbers cause the item to dissolve like a Berocca in the rain, which doesn't happen in classic, so that can't be right.

To try and get a lock on this in classic, I created a custom when-held magic item (Casual Pants of Water Walking) then did the following:
  • Stood around and left game running inside a tavern, coming back every now and then to rest when fatigue was drained.
  • Rested for several weeks.
  • Travelled around for months at a time until years had passed.
  • Equipped and unequipped item many times.
Despite all of that, my item quality never dropped below new condition. I made some notes about this in the code that it was something to look at again later.

https://github.com/Interkarma/daggerfal ... eld.cs#L28

Now there could have been some other issue in my testing. I had an item sample size of 1 and could have done something wrong. But I was unable to reproduce any item degradation at all in classic for a when-held magic item. As far as I can see right now, DFU actually matches classic behaviour.

As always, I'm happy to be wrong and get better information. :) It's simple enough to make this work any way required. All I need is some reproducable process to observe how this operates in classic and I will implement when-held degradation matching classic or equivalent.

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Jay_H
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Re: 0.10.4: Magic item degrading

Post by Jay_H » Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:56 pm

The wiki's definitely wrong then. Paging mikepritchard! :) Thanks for the info Interkarma. If I had time I could add some testing of my own... No guarantee though.

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Interkarma
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Re: 0.10.4: Magic item degrading

Post by Interkarma » Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:05 pm

I'm probably wrong in some way, and someone will probably arrive in under 12 hours to tell me exactly how and why I'm wrong. But posting something wrong is often the best way to get the right answer thanks to Cunningham's Law.

Standing by. :)

Ommamar
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Re: 0.10.4: Magic item degrading

Post by Ommamar » Sun Aug 25, 2019 1:07 am

I don't recall a degradation of held items in classic but I do recall getting different results when I would load in a cell as if the items effect was being recast. This doesn't seem to happen in DFU as an item that raises an attribute by 30 always seems to raise it to that level which to me makes sense. I could see a case of the effect lessening then having to be recharged, the Archeologist mod shows that such a system is possible.

Piecia
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Re: 0.10.4: Magic item degrading

Post by Piecia » Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:56 am

I think that it has something to do with wrong implementation of game mechanics by original devs. Critical Strike and Dodge skills are another great examples of that. It looks like someone came up with an ideo how to prevent the players from breaking game balance (can't repair magic items and they degrade quickly with "when held" effect.) and then forgot to implement said mechanic into the game.

I decided to submit this bug both on reddit and discord because after few hours of playing around with different magic items at level 10 I realised that the game suddenly became trivial. And I realise that's the case with every Elder Scrolls game. Enchanting and Alchemy tends to ruin balance after all but this issue seems solved on paper, not in the game itself.

gimble
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Re: 0.10.4: Magic item degrading

Post by gimble » Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:43 am

Interkarma wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:50 pm
As always, I'm happy to be wrong and get better information. :) It's simple enough to make this work any way required. All I need is some reproducable process to observe how this operates in classic and I will implement when-held degradation matching classic or equivalent.
I just tested this on a prior save on classic using an item obtained from the mage's guild (Torc with notorgo/speed effect), and at first it looked like there was no durability loss when repeatedly resting with the item equipped. I then realized that I had enabled magicrepair on that installation and had a custom item that had a repair effect active.

After equipping only the Torc and unequipping all other items on the character, I was able to get the decay effect under the following conditions:
1. Repeated resting for 7 or more hours at a time (the effect re-casts each time)
2. Repeatedly unequipping/re-equipping the item (you need to exit the inventory screen each time so the effect is recast).
3. Repeated fast travel where time to travel exceeds 1 day (I used cautious travel)

In each case, the condition shifted from "New" to "Almost New" to "Slightly Used" after ~20+ attempts (the count is approximate).

Later, fiddling around with daghex and looking at the item 'quality' value, the durability loss appears to be 5 points for every equip action that causes a re-cast and 8 points for an 8 hours rest period (i.e. 1 per hour equipped), although someone else should independently confirm.

PS: Btw, I greatly appreciate what you guys have accomplished with the daggerfall unity project!

Edit:Typos and clarification.

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mikeprichard
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Re: 0.10.4: Magic item degrading

Post by mikeprichard » Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:37 am

Wow, this would make "when equipped" enchantments pretty useless, then... and not sure how it would affect "repair" passive enchants if they themselves were dissolving within hours. But I only have time right now for a quick scan of this topic, and admit I'm not comfortable with what precisely is going on in classic for a potential re-update to the UESP (https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Mag ... ical_Items), as I had initially revised that subsection of the page per Interkarma's notes at viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2070#p24094. I'm not sure how to square his testing in classic there with gimble's testing just above here. At any rate, could someone else please take this on, or describe here the exact confirmed classic mechanics that would need to be reflected in the revised UESP text? Thanks!

gimble
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Re: 0.10.4: Magic item degrading

Post by gimble » Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:53 am

If it helps, I have attached the classic save file with the item equipped. It is set up in such a way that unequipping and re-equipping the Torc once will change the condition from "slightly used" to "used". Likewise, resting at once for 9 or more hours changes the condition to "used" as well.
mikeprichard wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:37 am
Wow, this would make "when equipped" enchantments pretty useless, then... and not sure how it would affect "repair" passive enchants if they themselves were dissolving within hours.
There is a difference between passive enchants (like "enhance skill", "repairs objects") and "cast when held" enchants which actually cast a constant effect spell (like "Feet of Notorgo") when equipped. I believe the passive enchant items do not normally deteriorate at all.

As far as balance is concerned, the classic deterioration rate is still low enough for these items to last through multiple dungeons. Having permanent magic items is too overpowered, especially if you combine spell resistance + spell reflection + troll's blood + fortify attributes in addition to the "absorbs spells" effect without any consequence.

Edit: Typos, additional information and clarifications.
Attachments
SAVE2.zip
Classic save file
(52.95 KiB) Downloaded 14 times

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mikeprichard
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Re: 0.10.4: Magic item degrading

Post by mikeprichard » Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:07 pm

I think I see what the confusion may be here: we (including the UESP pages) are referring to different things when we talk about "passive" vs. "cast when held" enchantments. On this UESP page (https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Magical_Items), even before my recent edits, only three categories of enchantment were referenced: "when used", "when strikes", and "when equipped" (which seems to equate to gimble's use of "when held"). Apparently, these three categories do degrade over time. However, my understanding now is that the fourth category of "passive" (which I think of more logically as "when equipped") enchantments do not degrade either in classic or DFU. First, is this understanding correct?

More to the point, which specific enchantments fall into the two conflated categories of "cast when held" vs. "passive"/"when equipped"? Comparing this other UESP page (https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Enchanting_Items) to the first page (https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Magical_Items), particularly due to the possibly overlapping effect categories listed within the Enchanting Items page, it's hard to tell in many cases which listed effect should fall under which of these two categories. As again I have limited time to do proper testing right now, and further UESP and DFU updates would need to nail this info down first, it would be ideal if someone could contribute detailed lists of all the available effects - sorting by those available on found items, which seems to be the focus of https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Magical_Items, vs. created items, the apparent focus of https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Enchanting_Items - sorted by whether they are "cast when held" (do degrade?) vs. "passive" (do not degrade) enchantments. Thanks!

EDIT: This page (https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Enchantment_Power) may have most of the info needed for my second point above, but time would be needed to sort through it and compare it to the other pages.

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