0.10.4: Magic item degrading

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gimble
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Re: 0.10.4: Magic item degrading

Post by gimble » Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:10 pm

mikeprichard wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:07 pm
Apparently, these three categories do degrade over time. However, my understanding now is that the fourth category of "passive" (which I think of more logically as "when equipped") enchantments do not degrade either in classic or DFU. First, is this understanding correct?
In Classic, "cast when used", "cast when strikes" and "cast when held" items decay while items that have other enchantments do not appear to decay (lets call that category "passive" for this purpose). In DFU, "cast when used" and "cast when strikes" decay but "cast when held" and "passive" enchanted items do not. To match classic behavior, DFU needs to add item decay to "cast when held" enchantments.
mikeprichard wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:07 pm
EDIT: This page (https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Enchantment_Power) may have most of the info needed for my second point above, but time would be needed to sort through it and compare it to the other pages.
Yes, this page lists out all the options available when using the item enchanter.

gimble
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Re: 0.10.4: Magic item degrading

Post by gimble » Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:55 pm

Just to help summarize:
1. Item enchantments have two broad categories: Effects based on standard spells and other special effects that don't correspond to standard spells.
2. Spell based enchantment effects are of three types: "cast when strikes", "cast when used" and "cast when held":
  • Cast when strikes - the effect is applied to the target when striking with a weapon.
  • Cast when used - the effect is applied when the item is used (i.e. "use magic item" key and select item) like a potion
  • Cast when held - the effect is applied when the item is equipped on the character. In Classic, it gets re-cast every ~8 hours of resting or upon fast travel. In DFU and Classic, the effect is also re-cast every time the item is unequipped and re-equipped.
3. Items enchanted with "cast when held" and the special effects that are not based on standard spells only work when the item is equipped - so they can be broadly classified into "when equipped".
4. In classic, "cast when held" items decay under the following conditions:
  • Repeated resting when equipped - this is reproducible in the save file provided in the earlier post. (Decay happens only when equipped. Resting after unequipping will not decay the item)
  • Repeated Unequip/re-equip - this is also reproducible in the save file provided
  • Repeated fast travel? - this isn't reproducible in the save file provided for some reason. Maybe I was mistaken earlier or classic behavior is more complex in this case
5. In DFU, "cast when held" items do not currently decay.
6. In classic, enchantments that use special effects only do not appear to decay and this behavior is replicated by DFU.

Edit: Typos and other clarifications.
Edit2: DFU source at github has a page that lists all effects including those from enchantments - https://github.com/Interkarma/daggerfal ... ffects.txt

Specifically, lines 163-189 are enchantment effects (the first list covers advantages the second list covers disadvantages). Out of all of these, CastWhenUsed, CastWhenStrikes and CastWhenHeld among the advantages and "ItemDeteriorates" among the disadvantages should result in magic item decay in their respective ways and everything else should not (i.e. they may be classified as "passive" as far as item decay is concerned).

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mikeprichard
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Re: 0.10.4: Magic item degrading

Post by mikeprichard » Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:30 pm

Gimble, thanks so much for your notes. While I had a bit of rare free time today, I ended up making edits of varying scope to the three UESP classic pages at https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Enchanting_Items, https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Enchantment_Power, and https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Magical_Items. From what I can tell (and as my edits to the above pages attempt to explain):

"Cast When Held", "Cast When Strikes", and "Cast When Used" enchantments, whether found on generic magical items or created via the Item Maker service, all degrade with use in classic (? - see below). However, while "Cast When Strikes" and "Cast When Used" enchantments similarly degrade with use in DFU, "Cast When Held" enchantments currently do not. Finally, both in classic and DFU, all remaining magical items holding so-called "passive" miscellaneous enchantments created via the Item Maker service never degrade with use (comprising all listed advantages excluding only the first three - those being when held/when strikes/when used advantages, which are subject to degradation as described above - and all listed disadvantages at https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Enchanting_Items).

Some points I'm still not sure about, as also referenced in summary form in the main UESP classic wiki topic at viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2514, are below. I don't expect you to have all these answers, but I wanted to get this stuff on the page as placeholder items for further exploration by you or anyone else who may have the time and interest:

1) Is it absolutely confirmed in classic that "Cast When Held", "Cast When Strikes", and "Cast When Used"-type enchantments created via the Item Maker - not merely found as a generic magical item, as I believe was the case with your torc - do in fact degrade with use in classic? In classic, I made a Daedric Helm with the Feet of Notorgo enchantment and unequipped/re-equipped it dozens of times, rested for 7-hour stretches dozens of times, and fast-travelled for 30 days several times, and the helm was still "New". However, this may have to do with the high durability of Daedric armors - see my next point below.

2) How exactly do "regular" weapon/armor wear and "enchantment health" as currently described at https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Mag ... ical_Items interact with each other? E.g. does the "12000" value given in the table on that page refer both to the regular combat durability of Daedric weapons and armors as well as to the enchantment durability of such equipment? If so, will a Daedric weapon break if 6000 enchantment points are used and 6000 combat abrasion points are also deducted, or are these completely separate concepts/values? UESP currently has no specific information on how regular combat abrasion/durability loss affects weapons and armors, including weapon and armor durability values for this purpose.

3) Your testing, as I've also tentatively reflected per my edits at https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Mag ... ical_Items, indicates 5 points of enchantment degradation each time the item is re-equipped and 7 points per 7-hour rest period, but what are the values associated with the third degradation event, fast travel? Also, are these 5 or 7 points on the same scale as the 1500-point enchantment durability that should be assigned to a torc or other generic enchanted item per the UESP, or if not, what is the scale/total value? Finally, do you have insight into why this UESP page previously indicated "For enchantments that are used as long as the item is equipped, following rule applies: The health decreases by 105 every time the item is equipped plus an additional decrease of 1 for every in-game minute the item is equipped. For example if one equips an item for one in-game hour, it has an overall health decrease of 105 + 60 = 165", which is very different from your 5-7 point sample range?

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mikeprichard
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Re: 0.10.4: Magic item degrading

Post by mikeprichard » Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:44 pm

Also, paging Jay_H re: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Tes2Mod:Dagger ... ifferences: it appears the "Potent Vs" and "Low Damage Vs" Item Maker advantage and disadvantage from classic have been removed in DFU, I assume because they were bugged per a note at https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Enc ... tem_Making (which indicates the "Potent Vs" enchantment "has been tested to be useless/have no noticeable effect", though it doesn't make a similar comment re: the "Low Damage Vs" enchantment, so I'm not sure what exactly is going on here).

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Jay_H
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Re: 0.10.4: Magic item degrading

Post by Jay_H » Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:19 pm

Good work mike :) I'll change it.

gimble
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Re: 0.10.4: Magic item degrading

Post by gimble » Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:25 pm

mikeprichard wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:30 pm

In classic, I made a Daedric Helm with the Feet of Notorgo enchantment and unequipped/re-equipped it dozens of times, rested for 7-hour stretches dozens of times, and fast-travelled for 30 days several times, and the helm was still "New". However, this may have to do with the high durability of Daedric armors - see my next point below.
The item material matters as higher quality materials have high durability. I took that character from the previous save file to the nearby mages guild to enchant an amulet with a fortitude castwhenheld effect. It shows the same behavior - condition changed to "almost new" after several equip/unequips. The Torc shows a max durability of 1500 and the Amulet shows a max durability of 800 when viewed with daghex.

Looking at the DFU source code, New -> Almost New for normal items happens after loss of ~10% durability, which means a daedric item with over 10000 durability must lose at least 1000 durability before its condition changes to almost new.
mikeprichard wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:30 pm
2) If so, will a Daedric weapon break if 6000 enchantment points are used and 6000 combat abrasion points are also deducted, or are these completely separate concepts/values? UESP currently has no specific information on how regular combat abrasion/durability loss affects weapons and armors, including weapon and armor durability values for this purpose.
For weapons, the durability damage will accumulate across weapon attacks and deterioration due to magic usage. There is no separate "combat" or "magic" durability.The enchantment points aren't related to the final durability. After enhancement, it looks like the item retains its original durability.
In DFU, item durability can be seen here -> https://github.com/Interkarma/daggerfal ... plates.txt
The "hitpoints" of an item listed is its durability. Material type also modifies durability. It can be seen here -> https://github.com/Interkarma/daggerfal ... Builder.cs

Line 49-50 defines the multipliers used for each material to modify durability
mikeprichard wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:30 pm
3) The health decreases by 105 every time the item is equipped plus an additional decrease of 1 for every in-game minute the item is equipped. For example if one equips an item for one in-game hour, it has an overall health decrease of 105 + 60 = 165[/i]", which is very different from your 5-7 point sample range?
I think the 105/60 points in the original wiki is incorrect - those numbers would have made the items completely worthless for actual use. As I stated before, these items tend to last through several large dungeons before eventually breaking during actual classic gameplay, so the decay rate cannot be that high. We also need more testing to see if the rate of decay is a constant or has a more complex relationship with other factors (for example item's current condition, spell effect cost, etc).
mikeprichard wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:44 pm
Also, paging Jay_H re: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Tes2Mod:Dagger ... ifferences: it appears the "Potent Vs" and "Low Damage Vs" Item Maker advantage and disadvantage from classic have been removed in DFU.
Actually, they are available in DFU - these enchants can be applied only to weapons - they won't show up for other items.

Edit:Corrected some errors.
Last edited by gimble on Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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mikeprichard
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Re: 0.10.4: Magic item degrading

Post by mikeprichard » Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:51 pm

Big thanks to gimble for all this great info, and to Jay_H for the quick DFU UESP update! gimble, I think my recent classic UESP page edits are mostly OK based on your responses, but a couple follow-ups for you if you don't mind:
gimble wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:25 pm
mikeprichard wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:30 pm
2) If so, will a Daedric weapon break if 6000 enchantment points are used and 6000 combat abrasion points are also deducted, or are these completely separate concepts/values? UESP currently has no specific information on how regular combat abrasion/durability loss affects weapons and armors, including weapon and armor durability values for this purpose.
The enchantment points aren't related to durability, just the durability of the item. In DFU, item durability can be seen here -> https://github.com/Interkarma/daggerfal ... plates.txt
The "hitpoints" of an item listed is its durability. Material type also modifies durability. It can be seen here -> https://github.com/Interkarma/daggerfal ... Builder.cs

Line 49-50 defines the multipliers used for each material to modify durability
I looked through those git code links, but I'm still a little unsure on this. Talking now about physical/combat durability rather than enchantment durability, I'm ideally trying to determine the total durability point value of e.g. an iron helm, and how many points are deducted from that value each time the helm is struck by an enemy. So I look at line 2146 in your first git link for a "Helm" and see hit points of 2560, then look at line 50 in your second git link and see an Iron material condition multiplier of 4, which means an iron helm will have 4 x 2560 = 10240 total physical durability points, correct? I'll then somehow need to figure out how many points each enemy strike on the helm deducts from that value, assuming each strike actually deducts the same amount regardless of the strike and/or target material type/armor category. In any case, I'm understanding from you that this discussion has nothing whatsoever to do with enchantment degradation, the durability values for which are apparently mostly correctly described at https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Mag ... ical_Items, yes? (However, I note you mentioned 800 points for an amulet, whereas the UESP page indicates all non-armor/non-weapon items have a 1500 point total enchantment durability; is the amulet a lone exception?)
gimble wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:25 pm
mikeprichard wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:30 pm
3) The health decreases by 105 every time the item is equipped plus an additional decrease of 1 for every in-game minute the item is equipped. For example if one equips an item for one in-game hour, it has an overall health decrease of 105 + 60 = 165[/i]", which is very different from your 5-7 point sample range?
I think the 105/60 points in the original wiki is incorrect - those numbers would have made the items completely worthless for actual use. As I stated before, these items tend to last through several large dungeons during actual gameplay, so the decay rate cannot be that high. We also need more testing to see if the rate of decay is a constant or has a more complex relationship with other factors (for example item's current condition, spell effect cost, etc).
That's exactly what I was thinking, and what Interkarma had noted previously at viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2070#p24094. Your 5- to 7-enchantment point deductions from a 1500-enchantment point total torc would make a lot more sense. Will be interested to hear more if you or someone else is able to track down more info on how enchantment points degrade due to fast-travel or other conditions.

gimble
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Re: 0.10.4: Magic item degrading

Post by gimble » Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:58 pm

I got the 800 number after looking at the amulet through daghex. It looks like enchanting retains the original durability value of the item as it had 800 durability before enchanting.
mikeprichard wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:51 pm
So I look at line 2146 in your first git link for a "Helm" and see hit points of 2560, then look at line 50 in your second git link and see an Iron material condition multiplier of 4, which means an iron helm will have 4 x 2560 = 10240 total physical durability points, correct?
It will actually be (2560 x 4)/4 = 2560 (looks like all the condition multipliers are finally divided by 4 in the code). As to item wear due to combat, it will require further search through the code or one of the developers to answer the question.

Edit: Wanted to address a previous question within the same post instead of a new one.
Last edited by gimble on Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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mikeprichard
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Re: 0.10.4: Magic item degrading

Post by mikeprichard » Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:07 pm

OK, in that case I wonder how many more non-armor/non-weapon items in fact have less than 1500 enchantment durability. As for my non-enchantment durability questions, I think that's a good deal more involved than I have time to wrap my head around right now, but I've linked this topic to the main UESP classic wiki topic for me or anyone else to carry forward sometime in the future. Thanks again for your input!

EDIT: Thanks also for your additional notes. Will leave this be for now, but may revisit for classic UESP purposes sometime later if nobody else does in the meantime.

gimble
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Re: 0.10.4: Magic item degrading

Post by gimble » Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:04 am

For those looking to efficiently reproduce the castwhenheld item decay in Classic, I would suggest using a short bow or dagger of low material quality (like iron or steel) to enchant as they have the lowest base durability. Since these items have low enchantment points, a disadvantage is necessary depending on the effect, but using something like bad reputation should be enough to cover any cast when held effect.

The condition change will become evident after just equipping/unequipping a few times.
mikeprichard wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:07 pm
OK, in that case I wonder how many more non-armor/non-weapon items in fact have less than 1500 enchantment durability.
The item template list in daggerfall unity seems to show all these cases. https://github.com/Interkarma/daggerfal ... plates.txt

Self enchanted items seem to always retain the original item's durability in Classic. It might be that the standard magic items sold by mages guild/Julianos have a durability of 1500 (for non-weapon/armor) - this needs to be confirmed.

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