KoW - D.R.E.A.M.

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ByteMixer
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Re: KoW - D.R.E.A.M.

Post by ByteMixer » Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:34 am

Looking nice! The newest screenshots remind me a lot of some of the Legend of Grimrock (and Grimrock 2) dungeon walls.

It almost looks like the newer green blocks dungeon wall texture has a little bit of specular map to it, which would be good for the damp stone wall look that Oblivion kind of overdid in caves. Little details like that, I think less is more. Too much, and you end up with stuff looking like plastic or clay rather than stone or limestone.
"Whatever you do, make good art." - Neil Gaiman

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Re: KoW - D.R.E.A.M.

Post by Narf the Mouse » Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:00 am

ByteMixer wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:34 am
Looking nice! The newest screenshots remind me a lot of some of the Legend of Grimrock (and Grimrock 2) dungeon walls.

It almost looks like the newer green blocks dungeon wall texture has a little bit of specular map to it, which would be good for the damp stone wall look that Oblivion kind of overdid in caves. Little details like that, I think less is more. Too much, and you end up with stuff looking like plastic or clay rather than stone or limestone.
Physically-Based Rendering (or rather, the lack of it) is responsible for the "plastic look". ;)

So basically, there's two ways to do diffuse and specular lighting. One way is fast (but was "good enough" for some years), and the other is correct but slow. A Google search for "physically based rendering" got me this picture. As you can probably see, the left rifle looks plastic, while the right rifle looks plastic, metal, and glass, as appropriate, although I think their metallic/roughness textures could use a little work:

http://www.meta3dstudios.com/wp-content ... 098549.png

The fast but "good enough" way is to calculate diffuse lighting (using a diffuse texture), calculate specular lighting (using a specular texture) and adding them together. The end result is that light out <=> light in. The lack of reflections on the left scope actually has nothing to do with PBR.

The correct but slow method is almost exactly the same, except you use a metallic/roughness texture instead of a specular texture; you reduce the diffuse lighting by the luminescence (think I got the right word) of the specular lighting, you generally do some other math involving words like "fresnel" and the end result is that light out <= light in.

This isn't an either-or switch; it's more a matter of "We've switched enough of our algorithms to be based on physical lighting formulas, rather than abstractions of physical lighting formulas".

Other upsides of PBR include:

* It looks better no matter the lighting. Previous lighting models often had to be tuned for that specific situation, room, textures... As you saw, Oblivion's dungeons had too much specular highlighting. While PBR wouldn't completely change it, it would look "less wrong". Shiny rocks, rather than shiny plastic.

* It's easier for artists to work with (or so I understand)? since values like reflectivity and roughness are predfined? Also, you can just take pictures of real-world things and make a texture out of that?

* Everything no longer looks like plastic. Really, that's the most important part. ;)
Previous experience tells me it's very easy to misunderstand the tone, intent, or meaning of what I've posted. If you have questions, ask.

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Re: KoW - D.R.E.A.M.

Post by ByteMixer » Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:45 am

Most of that is over my head (I'm not a visual arts or 3D art kinda guy....despite occasional attempts at watercolor painting) But I get the gist of it. ;) I'm a sound guy as you probably know, hehe! Thanks for the info.

Hooray for advances in design, tech, and hardware capability, and the end (or at least mitigation) of overly shiny surfaces! :D
"Whatever you do, make good art." - Neil Gaiman

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Re: KoW - D.R.E.A.M.

Post by Narf the Mouse » Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:57 am

ByteMixer wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:45 am
Most of that is over my head (I'm not a visual arts or 3D art kinda guy....despite occasional attempts at watercolor painting) But I get the gist of it. ;) I'm a sound guy as you probably know, hehe! Thanks for the info.

Hooray for advances in design, tech, and hardware capability, and the end (or at least mitigation) of overly shiny surfaces! :D
Programmer, myself. But I can muddle my way through Unity shaders. :)

Edit: To get a better (fairly literal ;) ) picture, next time you're looking at something shiny that's reflecting a light, take a look at the reflection of the light: That's specular, and is always the colour of the light. Mirrors are very "specular" - Very metallic. "Roughness" is how little of the light is reflected back at you - table knives are typically very metallic, but also fairly rough, so that while you can generally get a look at yourself, the light is also more "blurry" when reflected.

Anyway, I'm sure someone else here can explain it better. ;)
Previous experience tells me it's very easy to misunderstand the tone, intent, or meaning of what I've posted. If you have questions, ask.

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Re: KoW - D.R.E.A.M.

Post by King of Worms » Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:05 pm

This stuff about all the maps is crazy... The more I get into the matter, the more confused I am. Its best to stay with basics!

What I use is
Normal map
Height map

Thats essential. I add height maps to materials which benefit from it.

Ive switched from Materialize to B2M which is 10x better. That is painful. Because now I should remake it all. Or at the very least, go thru all the materials again, and remake at least some.

Plus there is that "roughness setup" shader in Unity. I saw some nice materials created with that. But I dont understand it very well. Dunno when to use it and how. Thats why I tend to stay with basics.

I think I will release RC3 now. Its quite advanced as it is. Ppl can test it, and I can take my time to work with B2M.
Its tedious, almost painfull, but thats the nature of this whole project!!!

Consistency thru these times is crucial, in the project of this size... basically... NEVER GIVE UP.

And that is hard now... but than there is that obsession :twisted: Its a never ending fight. Maybe this project is my damnation in disguise.

There is so much testing, compiling, altering, errors, files, directories, options and programs... its just can kill a man :lol:
Last edited by King of Worms on Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: KoW - D.R.E.A.M.

Post by King of Worms » Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:14 pm

The_Elder_Scrolls_II_-_Daggerfall(RGB)(noise_scale)(Level3)(tta)(x2.000000).png
The_Elder_Scrolls_II_-_Daggerfall(RGB)(noise_scale)(Level3)(tta)(x2.000000).png (1021.86 KiB) Viewed 470 times

DREAM RC3:


- 100s of new materials
- better compression on NPCs
- improved some sprites
- improved some portraits
- included new crosshair into the HUD section
- removed the manifest files from the package
...and probably other things Ive forgotten

Please provide a feedback on how it runs for you, and especially if you encounter bugs, strange things or anything out of ordinary :!:

Thank You!

DOWNLOAD MEGA: https://mega.nz/#!TnIngaJS!IqWRASYww6uw ... clpwPafX7c

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Re: KoW - D.R.E.A.M.

Post by Narf the Mouse » Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:20 pm

Cool, thank you very much. Also, you seem to be having fun, so it probably isn't damnation. ;)

You may be overthinking roughness maps. ;) They are quite literally a measure of how rough a surface is at a given point. No additional thought necessary: Sandpaper has a higher value than a mirror. :)
Previous experience tells me it's very easy to misunderstand the tone, intent, or meaning of what I've posted. If you have questions, ask.

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Re: KoW - D.R.E.A.M.

Post by King of Worms » Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:37 pm

Fun it usually is :)

It seems normals and sometimes height maps do the job, oclussion maps in few cases worked nicely as well. Will keep the rest for laters...

Time to hit the bed :lol: (nsfw)
Spoiler!
nsfv.jpg
nsfv.jpg (502.52 KiB) Viewed 409 times

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Re: KoW - D.R.E.A.M.

Post by King of Worms » Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:08 am


Narf the Mouse
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Re: KoW - D.R.E.A.M.

Post by Narf the Mouse » Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:33 am

Have you given thought to displacement maps and tessellation? :twisted:
Previous experience tells me it's very easy to misunderstand the tone, intent, or meaning of what I've posted. If you have questions, ask.

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