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Re: [MOD]Climates & Cloaks

Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:28 pm
by Rand
While you're doing racial mods, don't forget Dunmer (dark elves) should have a bonus to resist heat.

Re: [MOD]Climates & Cloaks

Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 4:22 pm
by Ralzar
Rand wrote: Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:28 pm While you're doing racial mods, don't forget Dunmer (dark elves) should have a bonus to resist heat.
At the moment, they are set up like this:

Nord: +10
Breton: +5
Wood Elf: 0
High Elf: -5
Dark Elf -5
Khajiit: -5
Argonian: -5
Redguard: -10

Which shifts them on the spectrum of being vulnerable to one and resistant to the other. So Nords are really good at cold, but more easily affected by heat, while Redguards are the opposite.
I just made these numbers up from reading about the races and their countries on the UESP wiki.
In addition, Khajiit and Argonians do not suffer penalties for being naked and Argonians have a delay in being affected by temperatures, but when it does "break through" it hits hard.

Re: [MOD]Climates & Cloaks

Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:29 pm
by Rand
Ralzar wrote: Sun Dec 01, 2019 4:22 pm So Nords are really good at cold, but more easily affected by heat, while Redguards are the opposite.
I just made these numbers up from reading about the races and their countries on the UESP wiki.
Dark elves should be as good if not better better than Redguard at heat adaptation, or else you're gonna hear about it.
In all the major games, they always have significant, often the only, fire resistance.

High Elves: the opposite. Low resistance to all elements.

Redguards maybe shouldn't resist so much as recover fast, especially from heat.

Re: [MOD]Climates & Cloaks

Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:36 pm
by Ralzar
Hm, ok. THen it's unfortunate they do not have 30% Fire Resistance like Nords have 30% Frost Resistance, since I just figured out how to implement resistances in my mod :D

I'll shuffle the numbers around a bit.

Re: [MOD]Climates & Cloaks

Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:36 am
by Ralzar
I've been working on implementing resistances, just need to get it confirmed that it's working correctly.

Just planned out how to cause bare feet damage (not for Argonians and Khajiit).

All I need then is to make clothes work properly, so for example, boots and sandals give different levels of heat.

After that, I'm mostly done with the stuff I can do at the moment. Camping equipment will probably be a much bigger job.

Hopefully I'll reach that point later today and can realease a pretty much finished mod that just gets tweaked a bit as I get feedback.

Re: [MOD]Climates & Cloaks

Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:42 pm
by Jeoshua
I don't know if I'm doing or expecting something wrong but, as a Khajiit, all full leather armor (including helmet) plus Khajiit suit and shirt, plus not one but two cloaks, both common and formal, I still freeze outside in the winter of Daggerfall.

Also I use this mod in conjunction with Roleplay Realism and Tedious Travel and have noticed that the Stamina drain doesn't seem to be working properly. Sure I lose Stamina, but I don't pass out when it runs out, don't take damage, and if I lose the last bit of Stamina due to cold weather effects, I am completely immune to passing out from lack of stamina. I think the number is going negative without any checks.

That being said, if there is going to be a penalty for being undressed in the cold, that needs to be able to be overcome. Two cloaks, hoods up, full armor and clothes should be be enough for anyone to be warm on the coldest night. If it's not, then you just made Winter irrevocably deadly for anyone not a Nord.

I suppose the same thing could be said about the Alik'r Desert in Summer for anyone not a Redguard but... that, at least, is to be expected. Speaking of which, is lattitude or elevation taken into account, or only Season, time of day, and Climate? It would be amazing if you could freeze at night in high elevation desert.

Re: [MOD]Climates & Cloaks

Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 6:13 pm
by Ralzar
Clothing is actually the one part of the mod that is still a bit bare-bones. I'm planning on trying to figure it out now.

I was afraid the mod did not mesh well with Tedious Travel. I will have to figure that out once I am finished with clothing.

The mod does not take elevation into account because there honestly isn't much elevation in Daggerfall. Maybe in the future. But the mod does take climate into account which implies elevation. Like Mountains being the coldest, even though the ingame elevation is fairly un-mountainish :D
The desert is actually the climate with by far the biggest night/day temperature difference. (After that is mountains.) But I might consider increasing it even more.

Edit: Oh, and you don't have to worry about penalty for being undressed. It does not affect Khajiit and Argonians ;)

Re: [MOD]Climates & Cloaks

Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:15 pm
by Jeoshua
Going by the Climate is good, but taking into account one or two more variables could make it even better. Imagine an Alik'r Desert that none but the most foolhardy Redguard would dare to go too far into the Southern portions of. The deep desert would be hostile even to the most well equipped adventurer, and without natural and magical bonuses one dare not go much past the coasts.

No, elevation isn't much of a thing, but it is still in the game files, and definitely does get rendered in DFU. The top of the Dragontail Mountains in stock DF with stock WOODS.WLD supplied map is 130 to Daggerfall's 12 (water being 2). I'm not sure of the exact conversion, but it does exist, there just isn't much slope. And while, yes, those mountains do have a Mountain Climate, there are low mountains and high ones. And a High Desert climate, too. I, for one, think that one should be very cold at night, the "base" desert merely temperate-cool.

Once I figure out this mod system I will be releasing a mod which contains a replacement height map with real lowlands, actual mountains, and a real water table. Rivers are out of my grasp currently but it will have a map of where they WOULD go, legitimately and the whole thing will be hydrologically correct (downhill to the sea, always... eventually. Might have to go around through some snaking valleys first). I have this map, already, in play test. I just want something more sharp mountains and large scale terrain first. But in this case, interacting with this mod, it would be lovely if the elevations worked in more naturally to temperature.

Edit: Oh, second issue noticed. Fully clothed, Same Khajiit, in a Dungeon with a bed (rp realism let's me pull up sleep menu when clicking, maybe not important). I go to sleep. It is night, in Daggerfall, in Winter. I sleep for 18 hours before I cancel it because, as I sleep, my Stamina drains away and will not come up to 100%. Apparently I could sleep forever in this situation. Again, no damage to health, just Stamina drain, possibly below negative.

Should the Stamina drain stop when sleeping, you think? Just Health at that point, if extreme enough, should suffice. Or maybe no stamina drain while sleeping AND somehow disallow sleep if your health is draining away, since at that point, if you sleep, you sleep FOREVER.

That last idea brings to mind playing ironman, being out in the cold, 2 km away from a town, no Stamina, cold, can't sleep, passing out every step of the way, trying desperately to get into the warm tavern you can just barely see on the horizon, and praying your health lasts while you crawl your way there. Epic!

Re: [MOD]Climates & Cloaks

Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:56 pm
by l3lessed
Ah, you beat me to this. After combat overhaul, I wanted to move on to survival features.

Nice work though.

As for mountains and altitude, it should affect it. You just need to find the proper conversion ratio. In real life, every 1000ft of altitude lowers temperatures by -3.3F. So, at sea level if its 100 degrees, at 10,000 feet, its as cool as 67 degrees. And trust me, living in a desert, at the base of the sierra nevadas, doing years of backcountry backpacking, I can tell you from personal experience altitude can quickly change a climate, and anytime you plan any real packing trip, you watch altitude closely. As an example, one year, I was less than 60 miles from my home. In the valley, it was 105+ degrees. Where I was, 9000ft high in the backcountry, it was below 60 degrees, hailing, and raining all day.

Re: [MOD]Climates & Cloaks

Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:03 pm
by Jeoshua
Given the fantasy element present, I would say that 10km, the approximate height of Mt Everest, should be what we should assume the maximum elevation value possible in the height map represents. Note that the Dragontail Mountains only reach about the midway point of the possible values. Thats.... one thing I plan on changing in my map but, hey, no thread jacking Jeo! Anyhow there is one point near Sentinel that is full height 255 in the map... Literally one pixel of the map. So that's the highest point in the game. It'd be a great place to test out this idea too.