[MOD] Orchestral and Accoustic Remaster of Daggerfall Soundtrack

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Lord_Braathen
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Re: [MOD] Orchestral and Accoustic Remaster of Daggerfall Soundtrack

Post by Lord_Braathen » Sun Jan 05, 2020 3:34 am

pango wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2020 8:21 pm
Reviewing music is hard. Reviewing a lot of music doubly so, as I tend to be influenced by what I heard before, and not be very consistent. Oh, well.

Just to explain where I'm coming from, I mostly listen to jazz, funk, blues, so acoustic is right into my alley, so is dissonances, playful rhythmic,... It works best with some tracks than others, but I like many tracks (song_16, song_d2, song_d3, song_d5, song_fm_dngn3, to name a few). I like the use of dissonance for example in song_d2 or song_d6. Classic trick to instill unease or even fear, but it works. song_d3 makes a good use of reverb. Human choir work good too, makes you wish for a longer theme...

Now on for what I like less:
song_03: a bit confuse. After listening to all tracks I get used to reverb, but there's still something confuse about this track, I'm not exactly sure what.
song_22: weird counterpoint, not necessarily a bad thing, but it feels like something that could be developed further. Also, I think this track would be better on a slightly faster tempo. Some remixes accelerated it, and it feels great.
song_23: some drum shots are behind the time near the end of the track, I can't get used to it
song_d1: too much claves at times, and when it gets more sparse it doesn't feel accurate/confident enough (say, compared to song_d3 or song_d4)
song_d4: I like it, looping to the beginning is a bit harsh though
song_dag_8: good track, but loses steam at the end
song_dag_11: only obvious technical issue I noticed, there's some clicks in this track, probably a problem with the bell sound. I don't know if it has been reported before.
song_folk3: isn't there supposed to be an arpeggio? Will have to re-listen to the original
song_fsnow__b, song_oversnow: basic drumming accent on first time

So here's my subjective list after listening to the tracks usually two times only...
Woahou !! Thank you so much Pango for the time you spent on these great feedbacks !
I have a lot of work to be done before releasing the 1.2 version.

To be honest, i did my remaster from a zipped midi pack I downloaded 10 years ago. It's the only source I found where all the midi musics were implemented.
My music theory skills are limited right now, so i did not modify the scores so much. I only transposed some instrument's tracks by 1-2 octaves up or down, delete or modify some notes(length and legato problems), humanize notation (thanks Studio One) to add more life in it and remove the machine gun effect of some arpeggios (especially snare drums (ex: notes divided by 2) etc...). So , even if your advices are great, some of them deal with the original composition itself or midi files transcriptions. It will need some musical work although i can already fix some issues you kindly told me
Conclusion : i need to learn music theory ;)

If someone has the original midi files from the game and could share them with me, it would be really appreciated.


For song_3, after listening to it again, you're right too much reverb.
Song_22 : I made the choice to replace some instruments (lyre and duduk instead strings and flute). About the counterpoint, my skills are not that good to improve that point right now, but i'll try with 10% faster bpm.
Song_23 : I did not modify the notes position of the drums section (i'll try)
Song_d1 : same as Song_23
Song_d4 : will be fixed soon
Song_dag8 : steam ? (I'm french like you, but not as fluent in English than you), i guess something with the rough ending.
song_dag11 : That's weird, i have no clicks at all on the released files.
song_folk3 : It is a simple remaster of the midi file, maybe it was changed by the transcripter.
song_fsnow__b, song_oversnow: "basic drumming accent on first time ?" what do you mean by basic drumming accent" ? Maybe more dynamics ?


What surprised me is that you likes some dungeon's tracks. To be honest, among all the types of music, dungeon's ones are those i dislike the most in my opinion . I did a lot of tweaks but i was never fully satisfied with the result.

Thank you again Pango for your feedback.
Orchestral and Accoustic Remaster of Daggerfall Soundtrack

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pango
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Re: [MOD] Orchestral and Accoustic Remaster of Daggerfall Soundtrack

Post by pango » Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:21 am

Lord_Braathen wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 3:34 am
Song_dag8 : steam ? (I'm french like you, but not as fluent in English than you), i guess something with the rough ending.
Well, the track loses instruments one by one, but after listening to it again it's part of the composition, and should loop fine too.
Lord_Braathen wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 3:34 am
song_dag11 : That's weird, i have no clicks at all on the released files.
Maybe it's an instrument that has a very percussive attack? First heard at the 12th second, if that helps
Lord_Braathen wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 3:34 am
song_fsnow__b, song_oversnow: "basic drumming accent on first time ?" what do you mean by basic drumming accent" ? Maybe more dynamics ?
I'm used to hear those tracks with no drums (just bells in the case of fsnow_b), and it sounds just fine. I don't feel that stronger drumming is an improvement, they're rather light hearted tracks. (Maybe if the track was longer, as part of a build up, but we're dealing with a short loop here),
Lord_Braathen wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 3:34 am
What surprised me is that you likes some dungeon's tracks. To be honest, among all the types of music, dungeon's ones are those i dislike the most in my opinion . I did a lot of tweaks but i was never fully satisfied with the result.
Well, first as I said I've been listening weird stuff since I was a teenager :D I'm open minded when it comes to music, or so I hope.
Secondly, I'm trying to think about those tracks in the context of the game; They're supposed to carry a sense of mystery and dread, and not be so intrusive as you may hear them for an hour or two (damn Daggerfall dungeons ;)) while listening for audio clues about surrounding enemies, doors opening, etc. They do that well (except maybe song_15 that's too blaring to be heard for extended periods of time, specially the original version).
When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.
-- Charles Goodhart

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The Holy Knight
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Re: [MOD] Orchestral and Accoustic Remaster of Daggerfall Soundtrack

Post by The Holy Knight » Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:02 am

This is amazing! and I absolutely love your version of the Snowing Track, Its my favorite song In the Game :)

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Lord_Braathen
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Re: [MOD] Orchestral and Accoustic Remaster of Daggerfall Soundtrack

Post by Lord_Braathen » Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:31 pm

pango wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:21 am
A lot of interesting things...
Thanks for the advices. I think the midi files i worked on are not 100% faithful to the original soundtrack.
I will do what it's reachable for me right now... Others parts will come when i will be a real composer !

I tried to listen to the weird stuff you linked, with no doubt, it is weird. For me, this kind of music is sort of a self masturbation for performers, not so much for the audience.

However, you're totally right concerning dungeon's tracks. I will try to add more ambiance to it, more soul (although i did on some). They are the least interesting musically speaking but those we hear the most... What a shame !
The Holy Knight wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:02 am
This is amazing! and I absolutely love your version of the Snowing Track, Its my favorite song In the Game :)
Stop it, i'm blushing...
Thank you The Holy knight
Orchestral and Accoustic Remaster of Daggerfall Soundtrack

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ByteMixer
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Re: [MOD] Orchestral and Accoustic Remaster of Daggerfall Soundtrack

Post by ByteMixer » Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:32 pm

All of the game's original midi files are available on the DFU github. https://github.com/Interkarma/daggerfal ... rces/Songs

The files with extension ".mid.byte" are the files you want. just remove the ".byte" by renaming the files, and they should be readable as normal .mid files.

Ignore the files with "meta" at the end.

Comments show the files were trimmed to allow seamless looping. I grabbed the files before that was done, so my version does not loop without pause. I don't really plan to go back and modify mine in the future, so having a seamless looped remaster should satisfy quite a few people, I think.

Hope that helps!

P.S. I see you use Studio One. Good choice, IMO! I just dislike that you have to get the professional version before you can start using your own VST instruments and effects (or get the Artist version and buy the add-on for VST) but that's fairly standard marketing. I'm a Reaper user myself (especially since they have implemented a notation editor recently), but if I were to ever switch DAWs I'd go with Studio One, and probably do a crossgrade from Reaper. If only for the ability to import AAF files (Reaper has neither OMF nor AAF importing) That would be helpful since our bass player uses Nuendo, and it would be nice to trade projects/tracks back and forth easily. (I'm in a pop/prog rock band and one of the songwriters).
"Whatever you do, make good art." - Neil Gaiman

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Re: [MOD] Orchestral and Accoustic Remaster of Daggerfall Soundtrack

Post by Lord_Braathen » Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:06 pm

ByteMixer wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:32 pm
All of the game's original midi files are available on the DFU github. https://github.com/Interkarma/daggerfal ... rces/Songs

The files with extension ".mid.byte" are the files you want. just remove the ".byte" by renaming the files, and they should be readable as normal .mid files.

Ignore the files with "meta" at the end.

Comments show the files were trimmed to allow seamless looping. I grabbed the files before that was done, so my version does not loop without pause. I don't really plan to go back and modify mine in the future, so having a seamless looped remaster should satisfy quite a few people, I think.

Hope that helps!

P.S. I see you use Studio One. Good choice, IMO! I just dislike that you have to get the professional version before you can start using your own VST instruments and effects (or get the Artist version and buy the add-on for VST) but that's fairly standard marketing. I'm a Reaper user myself (especially since they have implemented a notation editor recently), but if I were to ever switch DAWs I'd go with Studio One, and probably do a crossgrade from Reaper. If only for the ability to import AAF files (Reaper has neither OMF nor AAF importing) That would be helpful since our bass player uses Nuendo, and it would be nice to trade projects/tracks back and forth easily. (I'm in a pop/prog rock band and one of the songwriters).
Thanks for the share Bytermixer ! Maybe a bit too late...
If i had these midi files.... I'm so angry at myself !! :evil:
For the tracks i need to fix, i'll use these ones... but knowing i spent 400hours + on wrong files, make me so sad right now :cry: ....
It sounds like i'm bipolar, but i'm not, i think.

About Studio One, it has the best UI and workflow allowing me to mix fast and clean. It has flaws and bugs, but except that, I'm staying on it even if i own Fl Studio and Cubase 10 too.
I would love to listen to your band tracks, if you have some demo, please share !
Orchestral and Accoustic Remaster of Daggerfall Soundtrack

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Re: [MOD] Orchestral and Accoustic Remaster of Daggerfall Soundtrack

Post by ByteMixer » Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:37 pm

No problem! Most or your midi files are probably fine, but if there are some problematic ones, you can possibly see about swapping in the files from the github link. It should be a relatively painless operation. (well, I say relatively, hah)

As for our band, I'll PM you. I don't want to use the forum to "advertise" us! ;)
"Whatever you do, make good art." - Neil Gaiman

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Re: [MOD] Orchestral and Accoustic Remaster of Daggerfall Soundtrack

Post by Elricwulf » Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:51 pm

Love this music pack! Not *planning* on typing a long post at the moment, but just wanted to say these tracks are amazing. They really shine in the percussion and in creating a unique take on the soundtrack, instead of strictly sticking to the original mix and arrangement at all times. I like hearing subtle differences, like:
-a clearer bell on song_dag_4 (and in many others),
-the excellent (non-machine gun) snare on song_dag_1 (though I'd prefer a little more trumpet/horn dominance on that track rather than the smooth effect of strings. since it's a fanfare.
-I've always loved the "song_feerie" track, and you did it justice, with a pretty organic sounding "wolf howl" the only better version of that was a guy that did specific remixes of tracks with electric gutar, etc. that were awesome, but not really designed for fitting into the actual game.
-the operatic/choir effect on the overland tracks like oversnow, overcast, overlong, etc. is beautiful (and unexpected at first listening!)
-absolutely loved the pizzicato stuff in tracks like "snowing"
-the flute you used in tracks like "tavern" and folk 1 - 3 are the best, bar-none and most real sounding renditions of those tracks.
-Again, the excellent percussion, the chill vibe it sets in folk 3 is great.
-the orchestration on fsneak2, is the bomb, for lack of a better term.

So many more things to say, and I'm sure as I listen to everything, I may make some more notes here. Thank you, Lord Brathen. I have enjoyed a couple of other DF remixes/remasters, and I don't like to play favorites with music, but I have really enjoyed this pack so far. The only issue I'm having is a little stuttering in overland, town, etc. so I removed some of the tracks, which may have helped, but I'm not sure if your tracks are even the issue, because it still has some stutters, which mainly happens every time inventory is accessed, ESC menu, Load screens, etc. I thought maybe having to read the ogg files instead of just playing the MIDI through my excellent old-school Soundblaster Platinum with soundfonts, etc. Like I said, may have nothing to do with the music tracks though, and just the sheer amount of mod goodness I have plugged into my DFU build at the moment is taxing my aging "old" i3-2100 and its GTX 550 Ti. Distant Land, Tedious Travel, DREAM, Birds, Wind, Post Processing etc. etc. Lol but which mods can I live without..??

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Re: [MOD] Orchestral and Accoustic Remaster of Daggerfall Soundtrack

Post by Lord_Braathen » Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:52 am

Elricwulf wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:51 pm
Love this music pack! Not *planning* on typing a long post at the moment, but just wanted to say these tracks are amazing. They really shine in the percussion and in creating a unique take on the soundtrack, instead of strictly sticking to the original mix and arrangement at all times. I like hearing subtle differences, like:
-a clearer bell on song_dag_4 (and in many others),
-the excellent (non-machine gun) snare on song_dag_1 (though I'd prefer a little more trumpet/horn dominance on that track rather than the smooth effect of strings. since it's a fanfare.
-I've always loved the "song_feerie" track, and you did it justice, with a pretty organic sounding "wolf howl" the only better version of that was a guy that did specific remixes of tracks with electric gutar, etc. that were awesome, but not really designed for fitting into the actual game.
-the operatic/choir effect on the overland tracks like oversnow, overcast, overlong, etc. is beautiful (and unexpected at first listening!)
-absolutely loved the pizzicato stuff in tracks like "snowing"
-the flute you used in tracks like "tavern" and folk 1 - 3 are the best, bar-none and most real sounding renditions of those tracks.
-Again, the excellent percussion, the chill vibe it sets in folk 3 is great.
-the orchestration on fsneak2, is the bomb, for lack of a better term.

So many more things to say, and I'm sure as I listen to everything, I may make some more notes here. Thank you, Lord Brathen. I have enjoyed a couple of other DF remixes/remasters, and I don't like to play favorites with music, but I have really enjoyed this pack so far. The only issue I'm having is a little stuttering in overland, town, etc. so I removed some of the tracks, which may have helped, but I'm not sure if your tracks are even the issue, because it still has some stutters, which mainly happens every time inventory is accessed, ESC menu, Load screens, etc. I thought maybe having to read the ogg files instead of just playing the MIDI through my excellent old-school Soundblaster Platinum with soundfonts, etc. Like I said, may have nothing to do with the music tracks though, and just the sheer amount of mod goodness I have plugged into my DFU build at the moment is taxing my aging "old" i3-2100 and its GTX 550 Ti. Distant Land, Tedious Travel, DREAM, Birds, Wind, Post Processing etc. etc. Lol but which mods can I live without..??
Hi and thank you EricWulf ! I'm glad you enjoyed it, you made my day.
As i said, i have a ton of good virtual Instruments (VST) and I tried to use them when needed. With the money "well" spent, i could use the best ones regarding the harmony and soul of the track. I won't lie telling you, i'm not a skilled and great computer music maker and mixer, but i did my best. I learned a lot of tweaks and tips doing it. It's why you can hear the improvement of the tracks ascending their numbers.

To be honest, knowing the relative success of my remaster until now, i was quite reluctant to work on it again.
This project took me hundreds of hour since august to December, so I was happy when it was over. I have never seen a game with more than 70 different tracks (good ones and sometimes bad, especially dungeon tracks).
So, since the 1.1.2 version, i needed some time to play Daggerfall ;)

However, after this comment, you gave the will to continue furthermore. I bought recently Era II Medieval Legends (virtual medieval instruments bundle) and after listening to my tracks ingame, i want to make a lot of arrangements and improve existing ones.

Regarding the sound's stuttering, it does not appear when i use a media player only ingame. I thought it was an engine bug with ogg files. Maybe the best solution is to compile all these tracks in a mod file. The only issue is that i don't know how to use Unity and create a mod file for Daggerfall

Thank you for your comment and do not hesitate to say bad things too. I'm here to make one of the best remaster of Daggerfall.
Orchestral and Accoustic Remaster of Daggerfall Soundtrack

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Re: [MOD] Orchestral and Accoustic Remaster of Daggerfall Soundtrack

Post by Elricwulf » Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:12 am

Spoiler!
Lord_Braathen wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:52 am

Hi and thank you EricWulf ! I'm glad you enjoyed it, you made my day.

As i said, i have a ton of good virtual Instruments (VST) and I tried to use them when needed. With the money "well" spent, i could use the best ones regarding the harmony and soul of the track. I won't lie telling you, i'm not a skilled and great computer music maker and mixer, but i did my best. I learned a lot of tweaks and tips doing it. It's why you can hear the improvement of the tracks ascending their numbers.

To be honest, knowing the relative success of my remaster until now, i was quite reluctant to work on it again.
This project took me hundreds of hour since august to December, so I was happy when it was over. I have never seen a game with more than 70 different tracks (good ones and sometimes bad, especially dungeon tracks).
So, since the 1.1.2 version, i needed some time to play Daggerfall ;)

However, after this comment, you gave the will to continue furthermore. I bought recently Era II Medieval Legends (virtual medieval instruments bundle) and after listening to my tracks ingame, i want to make a lot of arrangements and improve existing ones.

Regarding the sound's stuttering, it does not appear when i use a media player only ingame. I thought it was an engine bug with ogg files. Maybe the best solution is to compile all these tracks in a mod file. The only issue is that i don't know how to use Unity and create a mod file for Daggerfall

Thank you for your comment and do not hesitate to say bad things too. I'm here to make one of the best remaster of Daggerfall.
I'm glad my feedback made your day/inspired you - happy I could help! From a musician/creative perspective, I know how it's common to have doubts sometimes in your creations or your ability, and sometimes even one comment or supportive person who really likes your work can make a big difference. The great thing about music, though, especially remastering/restorative works like this, is even if you feel you aren't the most technically skilled musician or sound engineer, etc., if you have a good ear and you put your heart and soul into something, people are going to notice that. :)

I am very interested to hear what you can do with that new medieval instrument bundle. Just please if you alter the folk/tavern tracks I hope you don't mess with the flutes too much, because as I said, they sound the most natural and like real instruments of any rendering I've heard. All the flourishes, trills, etc. sound great; those parts are where the midi instruments struggle, and I remember always hearing the imperfections in that, and like the "machine gun-like" snare rolls, etc. but in your version, you really did a great job fixing many of those flaws in the limitations of the midi instruments, and it sounds like you maybe changed the expression/velocity or speeds in some cases to smooth it out, but I can't be sure. A human being is never going to play a drum roll as 'perfect' as a computer, and since the sample is exactly the same, they tend to sound bad unless you do some work with "humanizing" and add slight imperfections and variations in velocity/rhythm/etc. Many people working with Midi don't go through all that trouble, but it at least sounds to me like you did, unless the instruments/software you are using has that feature or something.

Oh, and as far as the "bad", I mean, I remember hearing a few places where the melodies and/or harmonies seemed a little weird or unfamiliar/different, but like I said, I was enjoying hearing some differences. For example, there may have been some parts that sounded like a different melody, or like a backing/counter melody was being accentuated louder than the dominant melody, so it gave the track a different tonality. I can't remember the specific tracks, since I haven't had a chance to listen to the whole thing in depth, but when I get a chance, I will try to give some feedback on anything I hear like that. As far as the stuttering, no, it's not in the ogg files - I'm listening to them now on WinAmp - It's something in the game that is not noticeable at first, but it seems like over time, (like maybe an hour or 2?) the stuttering and lag gets worse (not just the music, the game itself) until I exit for a while and relaunch DFU. I feel like that's something with DF Unity that isn't playing nice with my system's memory or resources over time, so nothing to worry on your end. In fact, I think I'll add back all your tracks for now, and see if it even seems like it makes a difference. If not, I may as well enjoy the new tracks! I'll have to copy them to my work computer so I can chillax to them while working.

Good luck with the new endeavors, but don't ever feel obligated - if you are doing it as a labor of passion, then you are probably going to do best. If you try to force yourself, because you think people are expecting it or whatever, you can burn yourself out. Take a break if you need it. That said, I know sometimes the best work happens for me in a kind of obsessive state, like "I have to get this right or I need to finish this!" Haha. So good luck with it in any case. ;)

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