Daggerfall Remastered Music Project (Released)

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King of Worms
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Re: Daggerfall Remastered Music Project (Released)

Post by King of Worms » Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:22 am

Subscribed, will check that :)
PS: Damn that Metallica remaster sounds great!!! Dyers Eve

And my wrong, Ive mistaken this part:

"CTRL + left mouse double click on a dungeon segment will just add the marker without opening the note dialog (to create several markers fastly that do not need a note text - e.g. to mark a path with several markers)"

Damn... maybe drop there and reply to Nystul and suggest this idea about coin dropping assigned to a hot key?
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Re: Daggerfall Remastered Music Project (Released)

Post by Daggerpaws » Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:06 am

Got your Cleaned Soundclips DREAM downloaded. I'll poke around with it later on. I went ahead and made a reply in Nystul's thread--thanks for the suggestion.

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ByteMixer
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Re: Daggerfall Remastered Music Project (Released)

Post by ByteMixer » Sat Jun 22, 2019 5:45 am

Call me oldschool, but I generally dislike Artificial Intelligence or Algorithm based "mastering" jobs. The websites doing that sort of thing have been around awhile now, and they tend to be pretty hit and miss. "Mastering on the cheap, fast turnaround" kind of thing. Sometimes it's better than no mastering at all....sometimes not, sometimes you hit a sweet spot with your track and it works well for the site's algorithm, but that's uncommon. IMHO, it's way better to have it done by an ME who knows what they're doing, in a room designed for the job with an immaculate monitoring system. And there are some good reasonably priced engineers out there that won't break the bank on a project. For example, John Scrip at Massive Mastering. (that's really the only example off the top of my head). Though I'm looking at this through the lens of the commercial music side of things, rather than the game music side of things. In the context of game music, algorithm based mastering (especially for smaller indie devs) might very well just be the ticket.

I gave the soundcloud demos a quick listen on my headphones since it's late here. (AKG K240 MkII on an ART Headamp V6 Pro from a Mackie Onyx 1620i mixer/audio interface) But I still need to check on the nearfields (Tannoy Reveal 6 Passives on an Art SLAII 200W amp). I also need to listen to the actual files since Soundcloud further processes uploads for streaming. My room is by no means a mastering room, but it's not too bad for a bedroom mixing suite kind of setup and doing some critical listening. Just....not as critical as mastering. I have a swing of about +/- 5dB SPL in here and a decay time around 500 to 600 ms in the low end. Which is about as good as you can get with a room this size. The new bedroom in the new house will be a small step up since it will be slightly larger, and have room dimensions that are within the Bolt area. (I think the new house's room is like 11.5 x 14 x 8ft. where my apartment room right now is 9.5 x 13.3 x 7.8 ft.)

In any case, take the following with a grain of salt.

Initially, first thing I'm noticing at least on the headphones is more compression. That could be the tools in the pipeline, the AI algorithm, or re-rendering an already lossy format (OGG) into lossy again, and/or the additional processing after Soundcloud runs it through its preparation for streaming. I'll have to listen to the actual files (which I just finished downloading) and check again over my Tannoys later. Which I'll get around to soon. It's not too bad with the horns and low end, but I'm definitely noticing it on the strings/woodwinds, and it sounds a tad harsh.

FWIW, my philosophy on compression is to know it's working, but not actually hear or notice that it's working when listening. If you hear the compression at work and clamping down on the attack, then it's possibly too aggressive, and needs dialing back a bit. Though temper that with sure, rock and pop/prog/metal/etc. can probably handle more aggressive compression just fine and still sound great. Orchestral....not as much, and needs a little more finesse.

The other thing I notice is that there is a bit more "smile" to the EQ of the track, or a more aggressive curve. It's not a huge change, but it seems a little more harsh to me (though that could also be the compression at work, or the lossy rendered to lossy issue), strings and woodwinds, even though samples, sound a little less silky to me. Possibly upper mids overemphasized. It's not bad on the horns, and the curve works for them quite well. But strings/woodwinds do sound more compressed and harsh to me. It's not "bad", but definitely a different flavor. Some people might like the more aggressive sound, but I think I prefer my own flavor even if it is a little more subdued.

Also, to get a better result from your pipeline, I should send you the lossless formats with the mastering tool and limiter removed from the master channel. I'll do that, but I'll need to go back and render the project to WAV files. It's not a big deal to do, but I probably won't get to it until after we close on the new house and get moved in (which is soon, we close on July 26, and I should have the new bedroom studio room set up by early-to-mid August or so). I'm also building a rehearsal space for our band in the basement. Room will feature a small L-shaped wet bar, PA/media system, acoustic kit, and the room will be 17x21 ft. with 7.5 ft. high joists. (Direct-mount grid ceiling will be 7ft. 5 inches high, which is pretty damn good for a basement around here). I'm hoping to get that project started in September, but we'll see how the timing works out with the contractors, schedules and such. (I'm hoping we get selected for a fairly sizable local music festival that's happening on Sept. 7th....should find out next week).

Off Topic bit about the basement construction:

For those curious, just a bit about the rehearsal/general media space I'm building for myself and for our band to rehearse in as well. Of course, it also triples as an entertainment space for friends/family guests that visit.

The basement shell/foundation as a whole is roughly 26 x 34 ft. (about 7.92m x 10.36m) which is 886 sqft, or 88.2 sqm. I'll be building a 357 sqft. room (about 33.16 sqm) which is 17x21 ft. or roughly 5.2m x 6.4m in the basement. Luckily the joists are a good height for a basement. 7.5 ft. or 2.28m high. Ceiling will only lose an inch of headroom from the joist since I'll be using a direct-mount grid rather than a drop grid. The room dimensions aren't within the Bolt area (ceiling is way too short) but otherwise the Amroc calculator shows fairly evenly spaced modes in the low end, so they aren't clumping together too badly in narrow frequency bands. Overall should be a pretty tight sounding room once the acoustic treatments are up.

The ceiling space will have a 3 inch layer of roxul safe n sound in the ceiling joists up against the floorboards, 3" air gap, then a 4" layer of OC703 (or RXL 60). I'll be using a direct mount ceiling grid like Ceiling Link or Ceiling Connex (grids are PVC material) They use drop grid tiles, but you only lose an inch of headroom. It can only hold 3/4" thick ceiling tiles, so the low end frequencies will just pass right through those, (hence the heavy insulation + air gap in the joists) but otherwise the ceiling tiles I'm choosing have an NRC about 0.7 to 0.8, and CAC of at least 35. (something like the USG Mars or Eclipse tiles) Not really trying to soundproof, but the concept is to make the ceiling into one big cloud. Acoustically kind of like making the ceiling "disappear." Though I might see about treating any light leakage spots from floorboards with some green glue.

A half-height partition wall that separates the laundry area will need to be removed. Shouldn't be a big deal to demolish it as it's not a load bearing wall, and I don't think there are any pipes or electrical running through it.

Walls will be typical lumber framing with spaces filled with either roxul safe n sound or knaupf R-15 insulation. Drywall will be 5/8" purpleboard panels. Flooring will be wood colored ceramic tile, grade 3 rated for moderate traffic (we'll be in and out and possibly moving our amps/equipment around, so I want decent looking tile that can stand up to a bit of wear and tear). The basement flooring seems pretty level, but I'm sure there will be some minor dips which will need to be smoothed over with leveling compound.

Basic plumbing for the wet bar (just need to connect water and drain line) and basic electrical for 2 dimmable light switches and 3 or 4 grounded outlets. (one might need to be a GFCI outlet since it will be within 6ft of the sink).

Wall paint: 3 walls will be Glidden Premium "Silver Blue Pearl" color. Accent wall will be a Behr Marquee "Electric Blue" (funnily enough there was another shade I kinda liked called "Come Sail Away" :lol: but I liked the Electric Blue better.

Our drummer is also a mechanical engineer. He designs the gutworks for larger buildings and labs, and works with other contractors in that field. He estimates that since it's a fairly basic basement room project, I could be looking at about $30/sqft. for the work. My estimate is more conservative (meaning budget for a higher expected cost) so closer to around $36/sqft to $42/sqft. at the very high end. with desired materials, and maybe overestimating labor.

I plan to install the ceiling insulation myself. I just need the contractor to measure, cut, and install the grid since I don't trust myself that much. Tiles will be 2x2 tiles, and I'll put those in myself. (I want to make a pixel art ceiling, haha!)

The main support beam is a steel I-beam that will end up traveling down about the 1/3 side of the room, just in front of the wet bar area. I don't plan to frame around it. It's painted black, so I'm fine just leaving it bare. (Hey extra spot to put some wine or beer glasses and stuff)

Furnishing:
PA system will be a pair of 12" powered PA speakers, either Yamaha DXR12's, or JBL EON 612's. Leaning toward the Yammies, but the JBLs are cheaper. Board will be a Tascam Model 24, which can also be used to track rehearsals. Front wall will have 3 GIK 242 series broadband panels (one behind each speaker, and one placed landscape over the computer monitor) long walls will each have 4 panels (same type) spaced to have a guitar hung between the panels. Rear short wall will have 5 panels right next to each other, just above the drum kit. Front wall corners will have GIK freestanding soffit column traps (17" x 17" x 44" stacked). Rear corners will each have a door, so no traps. L-shaped wet bar with 2 dimmable LED pendant lights hung symmetrically around the corner of the "L" ..... maybe a 3rd one at the end of the bar, and a 4-ft. dimmable LED track light on the opposite wall. And a few bar stools. Acoustic drumkit will probably be a Tama or Ludwig. I'd love to get a DW kit in there, but they're freaking expensive even for the basic 5-piece kits. I think I'll stick with the Tama or Ludwig kits which are about half as much.

I'm not really into getting kegs, so the wet bar will just feature a mini-fridge and possibly wine fridge rather than a kegerator. Not that I drink wine much. Mini-fridge should be fine for storing some ciders for myself and other beer for other band members.

That about sums up the basement project.
"Whatever you do, make good art." - Neil Gaiman

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ByteMixer
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Re: Daggerfall Remastered Music Project (Released)

Post by ByteMixer » Sat Jun 22, 2019 6:24 am

Another brief listen on the actual downloaded files in my DAW, and yeah, I think it's soundcloud's processing degrading the audio. The actual files sound a little better both EQ and compression wise. Still a little aggressive, but not as bad or as harsh as the soundcloud streaming. So it's fine. Still need to listen on my monitors, which I'll probably do on Sunday. I've got errands and rehearsal tomorrow!

In any case, carry on!

Oh, and another realization once I move into the new house and set up the new room. I'll actually have no neighbors, and I can actually calibrate K-metering to proper and consistent monitor levels!!!
"Whatever you do, make good art." - Neil Gaiman

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Re: Daggerfall Remastered Music Project (Released)

Post by Daggerpaws » Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:13 am

Yeah, ha, you absolutely nailed it--I'll go ahead and give you some further context. I'm a lifelong guitarist>keyboard>composer, always amateur, never tried to monetize it. Spent most of my teens and 20s nerding out over game composers/sound designers and prog/metal records and concerts. At a longtime friend's request, I recently started making music for a friend of theirs, a solo indie dev with far more passion than budget.

The game they're making (as well as what they want from the soundtrack) aligns with my tastes really, really well, and the scope is fairly large and eclectic. They've allowed me production and management hats that are mostly new to me, and while I'm not interested it making a corporate career of it, I really want to do the best I can for my friend's friend's RPG, and to make a soundtrack I'm proud of in every way that doesn't break the bank.

Thankfully, the development cycle is long, so I'm trying to take on relevant anonymous, for-experience side projects like these ahead of my project's milestones, to help improve both these projects' outcomes and the final results of my 'day' work. :) Thanks for all the awesome feedback, as well as the context of your background! I'd love to work with those uncompressed files, and maybe do some back-and-forth with you until we reach a result that's most satisfying for you. No rush--after you're all set up in your new studio is fine.

Not strictly related to the topic at hand, but what sort of music do y'all play?

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Re: Daggerfall Remastered Music Project (Released)

Post by ByteMixer » Sat Jun 22, 2019 4:29 pm

Our band does a fairly decent variety of styles, but most of it has elements of pop and prog rock. Me and the guitarist both write songs. He tends toward the pop side (think Genesis) and I tend toward more modern styles, but also hearken back to the 70's proggy kind of stuff. (e.g. King Crimson) We are primarily an original band, though we will do the odd cover now and then. We've got some videos of live shows up on our facebook page, albeit phone videos. The ones from my wife's phone aren't too bad. https://www.facebook.com/BlackjackRoseBand/ The most recent ones from The Fire were done by a touring band's photographer. The band was Asympt Man out of the UK. Pretty good group. I liked their stuff.

I'm the keyboardist of the group and I also sing backup on a few songs. My stage rig is a Roland VR-09 (will upgrade to the VR-730 soon) and a Deepmind 12, sometimes also using my Vox VX50KB keyboard amp as a personal monitor, sometimes as reinforcement in smaller venues with a small PA.
"Whatever you do, make good art." - Neil Gaiman

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Re: Daggerfall Remastered Music Project (Released)

Post by Daggerpaws » Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:22 pm

I cut my teeth on bands like King Crimson, Kansas, and Van der Graaf Generator, so y'all's music is right up my alley. I listened to several of the available recordings and was pretty impressed with y'all's style and arrangements. The Pennsylvania music scene is supposed to be pretty good for music like this--has that been your experience?

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Re: Daggerfall Remastered Music Project (Released)

Post by ByteMixer » Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:29 am

Well, we do gig about once a month. Though ideally we'd like to get to doing a 3 week rotation. Thanks to our drummer Barry inviting many of his friends who wanted to see him back with another band (He also plays with the Fralingers String Band....Mummers Parade, etc. here in Philly), so we had 60+ people show up for our debut. Broke the attendance record for an opening act at that place. But since most of the attendees were friends/family, they kind of evaporated shortly after. We get anywhere from half a dozen to about a dozen showing up at shows since then.

So yeah, while our music is generally received favorably by the people who do come out, and by the venue promoters, it can be tough to draw in fresh faces and new blood to the shows, especially performing at your typical dive bar. Sometimes we get single digits tallied to see us, sometimes we get a dozen or so people to show up, and it's usually the familiar faces. Probably because half he band is North of 55 in age. (I'm the baby at 40, and our singer is a couple years older than me).

But we are still pretty new, and we haven't exactly been hitting the pavement too hard with the promotional material either. Rather, we're finishing up an EP, and once that's ready, we'll be ready to start doing some local radio interviews since we'll have decent recordings for radio play. That should help a bit. We will also be having someone do an animated music video for the best song from the EP, whichever song that ends up being. We'll also set up a bandcamp page and do an EP release performance as well.

From the few times I've been out to medium sized venues to watch a show, yeah, there's usually a pretty solid attendance at those. But there are usually more established and well known musicians playing there as well. I think once we really get the word out beyond our social media (friends/family/facebook/etc.) we'll be able to start drawing more people in.

I'm also hoping we get selected for a time slot at the upcoming local Havertown music festival since it's a fairly large one with 3 outdoor stages and 1 indoor stage. That would get us some fresh exposure as well. I'm hoping we'll hear yea or nay next week.

But yeah, once a band is established, and build up a consistent baseline for attendance, they tend to do okay. And I think our material is different enough to stand out.
"Whatever you do, make good art." - Neil Gaiman

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Re: Daggerfall Remastered Music Project (Released)

Post by King of Worms » Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:56 am

Hi Bytemixer, thanks for a detailed reply, my guess was right, you absolutely know what you are doing :lol:

Im progressing with the implementation of your music to DREAM and packing it in a DFMOD package.

Thing is, I need to select a format, and if I select ogg, same as you have, it still somehow compresses the files, even if I select the 100% quality.
Im not sure if this affects the resulting sound or if its a internal thing and it gets decompressed on load.

Maybe you try to compare it when its released? To the original unpacked ogv loose files I mean. I have very bad sound system here, so I cant hear a difference.

If there is a loss of quality, another option is that IF you have raw WAV files, I can create the package from them.

Time will tell ;)

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Re: Daggerfall Remastered Music Project (Released)

Post by ByteMixer » Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:29 pm

My guess is it's simple file compression, being packed into the dfmod package. Like packing the files similar to zip or rar compression and shouldn't affect the audio when the file is called up by the game. So it's probably going to be fine. It's not the same as what happens when rendering or using an algorithm to remove "insignificant" or "unnoticeable" parts of the actual audio as what happens when converting a lossless audio format to a lossy audio format. (e.g. converting a wav to mp3 or ogg) And it's definitely not the same as using a compressor on an audio track to "squash" the waveform. ;)

I don't currently have WAV files, but I can render them after we move next month. My guess is any change to sound quality from being packed in dfmod should be insignificant. But it doesn't hurt to check once it's released.
"Whatever you do, make good art." - Neil Gaiman

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