The new Shader release issues... 0.12 vs. 0.13 =(

Discuss Daggerfall Unity and Daggerfall Tools for Unity.
Core
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The new Shader release issues... 0.12 vs. 0.13 =(

Post by Core »

0.12 was waaaay better lighting effects than 0.13, i'm sure the update was for moving things technically forward, maybe even for the better, but the results render DFU lighting so badly (everything is muted and bland) that i plan to stay with 0.12, unless somehow all the comparisons on this DFU's website somehow got reversed!

https://www.dfworkshop.net/daggerfall-u ... ng-update/
Last edited by Core on Sun Mar 13, 2022 6:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Opcero
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Re: The new Shader release had absolutely horrible results to the game... =(

Post by Opcero »

Everyone has their preferences of course. But I think if you look closely at things you will see the colors and details are much more vibrant. The hanging lamps aren't washed out, you can see the flames in the fireplace, the green pants on the blond man in the inn pop much more. The atronoch doesn't look like a lightbulb anymore etc etc. I mean, look at the gold trim on the women to the far left in the inn. Its spectacular in the .13 update.

Core
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Re: The new Shader release had absolutely horrible results to the game... =(

Post by Core »

This is the only example that rendered better imo, why? Because there are no points important to focus on.:
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Okay, this is complex to deal with, yes there are details now, good, but the fact is DF was never about details, the game was old and looked best old, if i had to say what's best it would be yes to the new details, but not at the expense of loosing the bright points in the scene, like the fires & lights & glows, those were meant to be there, not to be muted out for the sake of the whole scene, that's just a mistake visually that only a tech would make, not an artist trying to bring the eyes to certain places by adding brighter lights or glows.

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Jay_H
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Re: The new Shader release had absolutely horrible results to the game... =(

Post by Jay_H »

But this is Daggerfall. This is absolutely a perfect reproduction of Daggerfall lighting. Go into DOS Daggerfall and load up the game, and you'll see that the current lighting has a 99% fidelity to the DOS game. If you don't like that, it's unfortunate but this is what being a Daggerfall engine remake means: getting Daggerfall again. I can't speak in Interkarma's place but I would consider it extremely unlikely that the lights would go back to their bright, glossy iteration of versions past.

Some mods such as Improved Interior Lighting still work with the current version, and you could try to fine-tune its effects to recreate brighter lights. Or there are settings in the Daggerfall launcher to alter how bright the game is as well. Try those instead.

And please, remember when talking to strangers on the internet: calling a product "horrible" that people have put hours of unpaid time into tends to put you on people's bad side. Please consider how others will interpret your words as you post them.

sayber1
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Re: The new Shader release had absolutely horrible results to the game... =(

Post by sayber1 »

Some screenshots from dosbox, and from Wayrest of all places.

Honestly I'd say the 0.13 is still quite far from original and is much, much brighter at times.
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Jay_H
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Re: The new Shader release had absolutely horrible results to the game... =(

Post by Jay_H »

Surely reducing brightness is the other 1% I mentioned ;)

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Interkarma
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Re: The new Shader release had absolutely horrible results to the game... =(

Post by Interkarma »

Core wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 6:53 pm but not at the expense of loosing the bright points in the scene, like the fires & lights & glows, those were meant to be there, not to be muted out for the sake of the whole scene, that's just a mistake visually that only a tech would make, not an artist trying to bring the eyes to certain places by adding brighter lights or glows.
Fireplaces and lights have no such overbright appearance in classic. These washed out emissive textures were a result of Standard shader in Unity only. No artist ever designed or intended them to look that way, and they only ever looked like that in versions DFU using Standard shader. Even early versions of DFU (pre Standard shader) didn't look like that. The overbright versions in 0.12 are literally the result of a tech mistake, and how they look in 0.13 is the artist's intent. I'm afraid you have things backwards there. :)


sayber1 wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:07 pm Honestly I'd say the 0.13 is still quite far from original and is much, much brighter at times.
And here I was worried people would find it too dark. :)

Is your feedback that daytime brightness peak is too high? I feel it's roughly the same, although this can be iterated on. Here's the same Wayrest gate in 0.13 at midday with sunny weather, which is highest daytime brightness.

wayrest-gate.jpg
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I don't see it as substantially brighter than classic at same time of day under same weather. Please keep in mind that weather affects brightness, and an overcast day will not be as bright as a sunny day. I spent a lot of time going back and forth between classic and DFU in building 0.13, and it's harder to properly make this comparison than you might think. You don't make any mention of time of day or weather in your screenshots, so these aren't very helpful data points.

If you find interiors too bright, try enabling "Ambient Lit Interiors" setting. This is intended to be a performance setting, but it also produces flatly lit interiors closer to classic without multiple light sources acting on scene.

I'm open to tuning lighting setup before 0.13 is out of preview. So apples to apples comparisons to classic with specific feedback is welcome.

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Seferoth
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Re: The new Shader release had absolutely horrible results to the game... =(

Post by Seferoth »

I actually have to agree with TC, while i like some of the new effects in 0.13 most about 90% of stuff looks better in 0.12 in my opinion. Wish there was an option for this.

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haloterm
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Re: The new Shader release had absolutely horrible results to the game... =(

Post by haloterm »

Well, I think DFU 0.13.x is much closer to the original game than before, and I think it should, even if it may look "worse" (from today's point of view original Daggerfall looks worse than 0.12 looked, and in most regards 0.13 is still much better). Maybe mods can provide different shades?

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Interkarma
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Re: The new Shader release had absolutely horrible results to the game... =(

Post by Interkarma »

I realise now some of you may not be initiated as to why these changes were made in the first place. So it might be worth a little background to get everyone on the same page. This will hopefully make discussions a bit easier moving forwards.

Based on past feedback, the flat glossy shine and overblown lighting in 0.12 and below is something most people find unpleasant. I've received negative feedback for years about blacks shifting into greys, lighter colours shifting into white, and a reflective gloss coating over everything. The changes in 0.13 specifically addresses these complaints, and you can see the difference as I work through them in this Twitter comparison thread. If you aren't sure why 0.13 makes the changes it does, that link should give you context for what is happening here and why. I'm not just changing stuff for the fun of it, I'm responding to previous constructive criticism from other people point-by-point.

Of course, this isn't helpful if you don't see these issues, or have become accustomed to / prefer that glossy look. But you need to understand this isn't something I'm doing out of the blue. People have been asking for these changes for years now. I've already had the conversations and worked through the options. Progress towards changes in 0.13 have been incrementally in progress since 2019. I'm often working on things months or years before you see them realised in-game.

With all that said, I don't expect you to like the changes in 0.13 if you don't find yourself inclined to. It's just not possible to make everyone happy all the time. But when giving feedback, I do ask that you try to understand what these changes are for and the specific problems they address. Cheers. :)

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