Will Dual Wield come back?

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AlexanderOB
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Will Dual Wield come back?

Post by AlexanderOB » Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:47 pm

Is it not possible to dual wield anymore? It was supported, but I saw a thread where it said that it was removed. Why is that? Will it ever come back?

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Feralwarlord
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Re: Will Dual Wield come back?

Post by Feralwarlord » Thu Nov 22, 2018 7:22 pm

Daggerfall has never supported dualweilding as far as I know. Yes you can equip 2 weapons but you can only use 1 at a time, equipping 2 just lets you quickly swap between them.

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Jay_H
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Re: Will Dual Wield come back?

Post by Jay_H » Thu Nov 22, 2018 7:47 pm

DFU's main purpose is to recreate all classic functions. Dual wield was a part of experimental builds with Daggerfall Tools for Unity, which is DFU's parent project. Once it was decided that DFU would be made directly, the dual wielding was dropped.

I myself don't see a great deal of use for it. If I have 100 speed I already swing faster than the mouse can react with one weapon, let alone two :D
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daggerdude
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Re: Will Dual Wield come back?

Post by daggerdude » Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:42 am

I honestly would like dual wield to come back for all non two handed weapons simply because it's cool for one and two because it's nice to have say a mace and a sword out when you're in a dungeon with undead and animals and other monsters in the same building. It also would enhance immersion : i never understood why i equipped both in my hands but had to switch to see them. I still think i should only be able to swing one at a time however.

it would be a nice quality of life optional thing.

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pango
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Re: Will Dual Wield come back?

Post by pango » Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:12 am

(ignoring the fact that dual wielding was historically rare...)
daggerdude wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:42 am
i never understood why i equipped both in my hands but had to switch to see them. I still think i should only be able to swing one at a time however.
How would that work in practice? Be able to swing the secondary hand using another mouse button?
When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.
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jedidia
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Re: Will Dual Wield come back?

Post by jedidia » Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:38 am

The combat system of daggerfall is very ill-suited for dual wielding (as are, for that matter, most combat systems in most games ever).
I actually find daggerfalls system quite adequate: have a different weapon in each hand and switch between them rapidly for versatility.
What probably could be done, seeing that left-handed animations are already implemented, is to have them both on-screen, or at least not have them switch hands when you switch between them.

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pango
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Re: Will Dual Wield come back?

Post by pango » Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:00 am

jedidia wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:38 am
What probably could be done, seeing that left-handed animations are already implemented, is to have them both on-screen, or at least not have them switch hands when you switch between them.
+1
When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.
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daggerdude
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Re: Will Dual Wield come back?

Post by daggerdude » Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:43 am

i remember playing the tech demo and if i recall the left mouse button was the left hand and the right mouse button was the right hand. It's really not something i expect to be done as a matter of fact, but a whimsical desire. I mean, seriously would be cool but perhaps gameplay breaking. I'm sure this will be a mod eventually.

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jayhova
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Re: Will Dual Wield come back?

Post by jayhova » Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:26 pm

pango wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:12 am
(ignoring the fact that dual wielding was historically rare...)
daggerdude wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:42 am
i never understood why i equipped both in my hands but had to switch to see them. I still think i should only be able to swing one at a time however.
How would that work in practice? Be able to swing the secondary hand using another mouse button?
It was historically rare among line fighters. Among duelists on the the other hand this was not so much the case. Possibly the greatest swordsman of all time Miyamoto Musashi dual wielded a katana and wakasashi. The book of the five rings details this. In general the offhand weapon is both a parrying and weapon of opportunity. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZNZyhNFSaE Goes a bit more in depth about fighting with two weapons.

Were I to suggest rules for dual wield it would probably be the following.
  • Below a certain skill level (say 50) dual wielding actually lowers your chance to hit (maybe something like 50% of the difference between your weapon and 50) to your attack. e.g. Let's say you had long blade at 60 and short blade at 40 then you attack at 55 because of a -5 penalty for lack of short blade proficiency. If both weapons are below 50 the penalty is cumulative. e.g let's say the numbers are 40 and 44 than the penalty is -8
  • Should the character not be using a light weapon (dagger, short sword, etc.) in the offhand the above minimum skill level is increased to 75
  • The more effective weapon becomes the primary weapon in cases where a creature has immunities or resists certain kinds of attacks.
  • The offhand weapon counts as a small shield against melee attacks and offers no bonus from missile attacks. The chance of the offhand weapon giving a shield bonus against a melee attack is 2% per skill point so at 50 it's 100%
  • On a successful strike with the primary weapon a second check is made to see if the offhand weapon hits. If so, the weapon does no additional damage but a second critical strike may occur doubling the chance of a critical and providing the possibility of two criticals.
  • On a successful strike with the primary weapon a second check is made to see if the offhand weapon hits. If so, the weapon may apply any spell effects against the target.
  • Your attack is never higher than your primary weapon
  • XP for the weapons is split between the two until one is mastered meaning skill advancement in each weapon takes twice as long until one skill is at 100.
  • Offhand weapon takes wear damage as shield on successful parry
  • Optional: stating at 90 the offhand weapon confers a 5-10% per skill point chance of deflecting missile weapons as a small shield.
The idea here is that dual wielding would not confer a tremendous advantage over a sword and shield but there would be enough of an advantage to use it when the character was significantly skilled.
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daggerdude
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Re: Will Dual Wield come back?

Post by daggerdude » Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:41 pm

I think that's a good idea for a mod, but my Idea was that the player could ambidexerously swing one at a time with no penalties. It would be like literally having just two weapons out at the same time that act independently with each other, which i recall was the case from the tech demo. If not, i really would not like it to majorly affect balance.

Right now I switch from left to right alternately with a dual wielding assassin to sharpen both his long sword and short sword skills. it would simply just be nice if i can see both on the screen at the same time and not have to do that.

However, as a MOD, i would like there to be something. Actually, i really would like to see blocking and parrying implemented somehow as a game mechanic. where if you swing at a enemy and he fails to dodge but you fail to hit, his weapon flicks out and a parrying sound is made, your sword stops and recoils mid animation.
Same to you, your sword will jump out and intercept the blow, return in its place, make a sound. - and a slight advantage to the one who parried in terms of speed.
I'd also like a block button that would put out your shield/weapon to simply block an attack.

This is what made morrowind combat much more fun is that you had a chance to block and evade but the game encouraged you to stand toe to toe instead of back pedaling all the time.

This would however require AI improvements, weapons animations and new sprites (i'd love to help, shouldn't be too terribly hard) and it will probably be fairly simple to add a new monster state and player state IF/AND/OR to do something like this, but if this ties in with skills and held equipment and such this could get fairly complicated. The other thing is that certain weapons are not very accurately represented in daggerfall, you cant see what the enemy is using, and a whole host of other complications that make this a pain.

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