DFU vs Classic Differences: Master List

Discuss Daggerfall Unity and Daggerfall Tools for Unity.
Narf the Mouse
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Re: DFU vs Classic Master List

Post by Narf the Mouse » Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:47 am

BansheeXYZ wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:40 pm
Narf the Mouse wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:36 pm
Let's not turn this into a "versus" thing. Without Classic, DFU wouldn't exist.
This isn't a debate thread, it's a list of differences for new users to appreciate all the work that's gone into DFU. If I'm a new user and I download DFU, what tells me all this besides what I've made here?
Apologies. I've been on the internet too long, I think...

...Or maybe just the wrong forums. Although it can be hard to find good ones...
Previous experience tells me it's very easy to misunderstand the tone, intent, or meaning of what I've posted. If you have questions, ask.

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Jay_H
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Re: DFU vs Classic Differences: Master List

Post by Jay_H » Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:55 am

Do not worry! You didn't read! It happens to me all the time! :D
Try the first Daggerfall Unity Quest Pack with roughly 210 all-new quests.
I write quests but have no technical knowledge.

BansheeXYZ
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Re: DFU vs Classic Differences: Master List

Post by BansheeXYZ » Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:33 am

Revised first post and added your submissions, Pango. Thanks for taking the time to post all that.
pango wrote:
Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:01 pm
- more than 6 save slots, slots list by character
Oh man... how did I forget that.
- quicksave (f9), quickload (f12)
- inventory screen: Ctrl key + click to split a stack
I'm probably not going to include hotkeys that can't show up in the controls menu. These are both mildly useful commands, so it's not even a big deal if people don't know they exist.
- improved 3d map (higher depth of view, better controls)
- town maps: can be scrolled by mouse dragging
Yeah, what's worth mentioning is the vertical markers and the repurposing of the mouse functions. The transparency stuff seems to hurt as often as it helps.
- I saw in code that armor damage takes shield into account (the shield takes part of the damage)
Need more info on this and whether it belongs in the bug section. I'm also currently treating the armor values change as a ui change, but I've heard people call it a bug. It doesn't make sense to me that it never got noticed.
- scrollbars: in classic you have to click repeatedly on up or down arrow buttons to scroll lists
Need more info on this, too. How does classic have scrollbars in the spellbook ui, but not the inventory? Did they just forget or something? The art is clearly designed for a scrollbar to appear.
- region map: find location by substring, not only prefix
- region map: "I'm at" button works when zoomed in
- fast travel: boats accept letters of credit
Yeah, good.
- region map: "L" key to list all (known?) locations
Dunno what this is.
- inventory screen: mode defaults to REMOVE instead of EQUIP if you click on a loot pile
Love this change. Accidentally equipping loot all the time in classic.
- dungeons: light mechanics (dark dungeons, but candles, torches and lamps can be used to make light) (optional)
This seems a bit niche compared to the types of things I'm listing. It's just not some small generally agreed upon improvement. Not everyone wants to stumble around in darkness and micromanage lighter fuel. Maybe there can be a stock mod category for cool stuff like this.
- gameplay: can start a game outside of a dungeon (optional)
Seems more like a devtest convenience than a legit improvement. Starting out in privateer's hold is part of the story!
- shops: quality hint text as scrolling text instead of messagebox (optional)
Where's the option for this?

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Jukic
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Re: DFU vs Classic Differences: Master List

Post by Jukic » Sat Dec 29, 2018 3:43 pm

@Banshee:
I suggest You include also shortcuts and everything anyone remembers as this list can later serve as an invaluable piece of information! Especially if it will be updated!

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mikeprichard
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Re: DFU vs Classic Differences: Master List

Post by mikeprichard » Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:56 pm

BansheeXYZ wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:33 am
- dungeons: light mechanics (dark dungeons, but candles, torches and lamps can be used to make light) (optional)
This seems a bit niche compared to the types of things I'm listing. It's just not some small generally agreed upon improvement. Not everyone wants to stumble around in darkness and micromanage lighter fuel. Maybe there can be a stock mod category for cool stuff like this.
- gameplay: can start a game outside of a dungeon (optional)
Seems more like a devtest convenience than a legit improvement. Starting out in privateer's hold is part of the story!
Banshee - this is a critically important list for DFU players; thank you. However, your above notes imply you're no longer intending to capture all differences between classic and DFU, but only certain subjective "improvements" (though that's not implied in your first post). IMHO that kind of subjective distinction would make the list much less useful. In any case, the two mechanics listed above (both available in stock DFU settings) seem quite significant to me, and warrant inclusion on the first post. Otherwise, if you're now only intending to capture a subset of differences you consider to be improvements over classic, you might consider changing the title/first post of the topic. Just my thoughts.

BansheeXYZ
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Re: DFU vs Classic Differences: Master List

Post by BansheeXYZ » Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:21 pm

mikeprichard wrote:
Sat Dec 29, 2018 5:56 pm
Banshee - this is a critically important list for DFU players; thank you. However, your above notes imply you're no longer intending to capture all differences between classic and DFU, but only certain subjective "improvements" (though that's not implied in your first post). IMHO that kind of subjective distinction would make the list much less useful. In any case, the two mechanics listed above (both available in stock DFU settings) seem quite significant to me, and warrant inclusion on the first post. Otherwise, if you're now only intending to capture a subset of differences you consider to be improvements over classic, you might consider changing the title/first post of the topic. Just my thoughts.
This and Enemy AI should probably go in a new category. Imagine if, for example, DFU came bundled with an option to make sleeping real-time. There's a categorical difference between trying to fix a problem and adding new difficulty dynamics. I'm not hating on the option, I just want it to fit in somewhere.

People need to realize that half of the changes thus far are pure click reduction. It's like this stuff got made and it just "felt better" without understanding why. Guys. It's because classic is a clickfest.

Defaulting to mouse-look? Keystroke reduction. You're not toggling in and out to interface with stuff.
Expanded inventory slots? Click reduction. If you can see more at once, you aren't scrolling down as much to find stuff lower on the list.
Stacked potions and ingredients? Click reduction. If identical consumables take up less slots, you aren't scrolling down as much to find stuff.
Autodismount? Click reduction. You aren't pressing "T" and clicking "Foot" before entering.
Info panel? Click reduction. Avoids clicking "Info" and subsequent window. (which is why I suggested going farther)
Scrollbars? Click reduction. Click once and drag is 1/20th the clicks as clicking a button 20 times to see the 25th item.
Fast-travel links? Keystroke reduction. Avoids pressing "M", clicking "Find" and typing 10 to 20 letters.
Encumbrance display? Keystroke reduction. Avoids pressing "F5".
Arrow counter? Keystroke reduction. Avoids pressing "F6" constantly to see how many arrows are left.
"Remove" instead of "Equip" loot? Click reduction. Avoids re-equipping items, which takes clicks.
Saving the zoom level between towns (ini only)? Click reduction. Avoids zooming.

Anyway, point being, this is the not-so subjective stuff. It takes objectively less time to do the same thing. We could create side-by-side videos of people trying to accomplish these tasks, and the DFU guy would clock in faster and be halfway through a dungeon before the classic guy got done clicking.

Added this to the list:

Code: Select all

-Dungeon map progress is permanently saved rather than resetting upon leaving the area.

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mikeprichard
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Re: DFU vs Classic Differences: Master List

Post by mikeprichard » Sat Dec 29, 2018 7:38 pm

Agreed that new categories in the list for these items (which don't clearly fall into the bugfixing, interface, and mechanics categories you've listed so far) would make sense. I'd like to see such a comprehensive list as a stickied topic - I'm not sure whether Interkarma or the other core contributors are planning a full list of differences when 1.0 arrives, and if they aren't, this list here, with further additions/refinements both now and as development progresses, will be invaluable to anyone new to DFU.

BansheeXYZ
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Re: DFU vs Classic Differences: Master List

Post by BansheeXYZ » Sun Dec 30, 2018 12:46 am

I'm changing my mind on light items. Torches, lanterns, and candles are confusingly useless in classic. They clearly had this in mind and never got around to it. Why else would they be sold and found as loot? Having them be usable is actually less confusing. Some of the other enhancements, like visible reputation, are done for the same reason. To reduce confusion. Maybe someone will make bandages usable to heal 3hp or something while we're at it.

I've moved some things to the bugs/oversights section because it seems like they are. It doesn't seem intentional that:

-Containers replenish on load. This can be exploited easily to get rich fast and get daedric weapons fast. They probably just forgot to hook it up to savedata.
-Gold can't be dropped onto the ground or into a cart. Most likely no one cared how gold dropping was handled because why would you? You just drop something less valuable.
-Dungeon maps get wiped by leaving the area. They either forgot to hook it up to savedata or it would have made saves too big at the time.
-The "I'm At" button on the region map doesn't work when zoomed in. I can't think of any reason for this to be by design.

Al-Khwarizmi
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Re: DFU vs Classic Differences: Master List

Post by Al-Khwarizmi » Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:37 am

I think the point Jukic and mikeprichard are making is that, if it's going to be a "master list" of differences, it would be more useful if it just lists all differences, regardless of whether they are relevant or irrelevant, advantages or disadvantages. And I tend to agree. This would serve as documentation for the project, and a kind of historical documentation as well (it would help people in the future that play DFU to know what Daggerfall was like).

If instead you are interested in making a list of differences that you consider most relevant, perhaps both can be done? For example, listing all differences but highlighting those that you consider to be relevant, or creating different categories for the most relevant and the rest.

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mikeprichard
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Re: DFU vs Classic Differences: Master List

Post by mikeprichard » Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:09 pm

Right, Al-Khwarizmi. I'm not saying a partial list of only subjectively selected "improvements" wouldn't have any use, but at some point by 1.0, a master/complete list of all differences between classic and DFU - whatever the type - would be fundamentally important for the project. Again, it's great that Banshee has taken the initiative to get this going regardless.

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