Experimental Smaller Dungeons

Discuss Daggerfall Unity and Daggerfall Tools for Unity.
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jayhova
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Re: Experimental Smaller Dungeons

Post by jayhova » Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:19 am

I say this only because I picture this as being different every game. As long as there is a mechanism that keeps dungeons consistent during any particular playthrough that's all that would be needed.
Remember always 'What would Julian Do?'.
Windows 10 Pro 64 bit. DFU Ver. Alpha 0.10.7

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pango
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Re: Experimental Smaller Dungeons

Post by pango » Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:43 pm

Ah, I see. Well, generate some random seed during character creation, and add it to all the dungeon seeds, and you still only need pseudorandom seeding...
When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.
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Rand
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Re: Experimental Smaller Dungeons

Post by Rand » Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:33 pm

So F-in cool! :D

But as to making it "official" for DFU (build it in automatically enabled). My vote is no, because the intent is to by default re-create the original experience.

That being said, a mod for this feature, like pango and company discussed, is very welcome, and perhaps a default official "mod" for this improvement should be included with the build, and new users should be STRONGLY encouraged to enable it. Perhaps through an initial help screen on first boot that explains the option to them, or whatever.

Clearly, either the bugs need to be worked out with incompatibilities with running quests (which is all on the devs at this point), or it needs to be a "set at the beginning of gameplay" (character builder time) only setting somehow. Maybe a check when attempting to load a game that disables the feature for that instance if the save isn't in the right state (active quest, in a dungeon, etc...) with a text box explaining why. There are lots of options.

Elder Scrolls has suffered since Morrowind with mods that break games (and permanently f-up saves) when users enable them without reading/thinking. No need to add another in DFU. Imagine the forums: "can't complete quest", "me too" x89. Ugh. Hell, there's already at least one of these in this topic!

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Helegad
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Re: Experimental Smaller Dungeons

Post by Helegad » Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:49 am

jayhova wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:10 am
It would be interesting to allow. perhaps as a mod. randomly sized dungeons. Where some are small, some are large and some are somewhere in the middle. You would need to remember the blocks that were selected once a particular game began.
I think you just described DFDOS behaviour. :lol:

I love this setting, it really does help with the game flow, especially since I'm a stickler for checking all nooks and crannies. Also seems fairer that I don't leave dungeons with 50,000 gold and 100,000 worth of loot from downed enemies all from a quest worth a paltry 500.

Having said that, I don't mind a challenge. I +1 the idea of having a range setting where you tell the game the maximum size dungeon you want to crawl and it picks randomly.

A bit off topic, it sucks that a feature like this is going to be riddled with bug reports because people just can't reliably find their way around, especially if the quest target is well hidden. I'm pretty sure I've never encountered a genuinely incomplete-able dungeon quest. Even DFDOS's dungeon quest target placement was rock solid. It was always me at fault in the end.

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BoneofMalkav
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Re: Experimental Smaller Dungeons

Post by BoneofMalkav » Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:21 am

Helegad wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:49 am
jayhova wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:10 am
It would be interesting to allow. perhaps as a mod. randomly sized dungeons. Where some are small, some are large and some are somewhere in the middle. You would need to remember the blocks that were selected once a particular game began.
I think you just described DFDOS behaviour. :lol:

I love this setting, it really does help with the game flow, especially since I'm a stickler for checking all nooks and crannies. Also seems fairer that I don't leave dungeons with 50,000 gold and 100,000 worth of loot from downed enemies all from a quest worth a paltry 500.

Having said that, I don't mind a challenge. I +1 the idea of having a range setting where you tell the game the maximum size dungeon you want to crawl and it picks randomly.

A bit off topic, it sucks that a feature like this is going to be riddled with bug reports because people just can't reliably find their way around, especially if the quest target is well hidden. I'm pretty sure I've never encountered a genuinely incomplete-able dungeon quest. Even DFDOS's dungeon quest target placement was rock solid. It was always me at fault in the end.
While I agree with this, I also agree with what Rand and a few others have pointed out. This should be a mod. And I agree that it should have ranges rather then a True or False option. For that I think a good place to start with ranges would be to look at Oblige Random Level Generator for Doom with Unofficial Oblige AddOn where not only can you select how big or small a generated level can be, but with ObAddon, fine tune how big and how small those ranges are (From a microscopic room or 2 to Huge, Colossal, Gargantuan or Transcendent.)

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Helegad
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Re: Experimental Smaller Dungeons

Post by Helegad » Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:17 am

I don't understand why you and some others are adamant about it being a mod though. As a feature that's not enabled by default (or even shown at this stage), it doesn't interfere with the game at all. Since DF Unity is packing other features that improve on some of the biggest flaws of DFDOS, this fits nicely right alongside those.

DigitalMonk
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Re: Experimental Smaller Dungeons

Post by DigitalMonk » Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:29 pm

Helegad wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:17 am
I don't understand why you and some others are adamant about it being a mod though. As a feature that's not enabled by default (or even shown at this stage), it doesn't interfere with the game at all. Since DF Unity is packing other features that improve on some of the biggest flaws of DFDOS, this fits nicely right alongside those.
I'm with you on this. Whether it's a simple checkbox or a slider like View Distance or Rendering Quality, it's still fine as a core component. And it's already implemented as a core component, so why pull it out into a mod?

On a purely technical note that I haven't seen mentioned: If it's a mod, then the inevitable issue of version compatibility will raise its head at some point, but if it remains part of core then it will always be in sync.

As far as changing how the game plays, I don't really see this as that much different from view distance (as a preference) or reaction speed (as a game difficulty issue). And, as someone who hates DFDOS dungeons, smaller dungeons is critical to me actually enjoying my DFU time. I know some people enjoy spending real-life days in each dungeon, just like some people enjoy super fast enemies and crushing difficulty. I enjoy a more casual experience. Doesn't make either approach "wrong", they're just preferences.

Now, where I can see mods coming into the picture is in modability. Given how many opinions there are on how dungeon creation could be revamped, it probably would be good to have lots of mod hooks into dungeon creation (these probably already exist) and possibly into the smaller dungeons functionality itself (these probably don't exist, since it's a hidden feature at this point). So there could be various dungeon-modifying mods, but the core idea of "just smaller, please" would be built-in.

(Actually, I might not even mind the giant dungeons if they were vaguely reminiscent of something an intelligent architect would carve out, instead of anthills made by ants who were out of their minds on speed... So, there's a mod I'd get behind. Dungeons made out of room with clear purposes, packed as tightly as possible, hallways as short and direct as possible -- because digging this junk out and reinforcing the tunnels and carting in all the stones and bricks is hard -- very hard -- work, so nobody sane is going to build half a mile of twisting hallways that go nowhere... I suppose, in a world full of magic, some of the mad wizard dungeons could still be that way because why not, but non-magically created dungeons seem like they should have some degree of rationality.)

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Magicono43
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Re: Experimental Smaller Dungeons

Post by Magicono43 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:43 am

After reading about this "hidden" experimental feature. I tried it out by putting "True" the "Defaults.ini" text file inside of the resources folder. Tried it out after refreshing Unity (using the Unity editor, btw) with a new character. Went to the nearest dungeons and they were all the same size in terms of blocks and after doing "map_revealall" seeing they were the same as their classic counter-parts. What am I doing wrong here? Is it because I am playing the game through the Unity Editor? Or am I changing the wrong file settings?

Edit: Also, what exactly does the setting "AlternateRandomEnemySelection" do if enabled? Any post I can read about these enhancement settings in more detail? Thanks.

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pango
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Re: Experimental Smaller Dungeons

Post by pango » Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:58 am

Magicono43 wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:43 am
Edit: Also, what exactly does the setting "AlternateRandomEnemySelection" do if enabled? Any post I can read about these enhancement settings in more detail? Thanks.
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=2985&start=20#p34974
When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.
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Magicono43
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Re: Experimental Smaller Dungeons

Post by Magicono43 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:27 pm

Thanks for that link, had issues finding that info with the search function.

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