Improving Dungeon Crawling

[jayhova]

I don't agree that level design in Daggerfall is bad. It's actually quite amazing for the time it existed in. Level design in Skyrim is not all that great because you cannot possibly fail. The problem with dungeons in Daggerfall is they are difficult to manage. In Arena all dungeon levels were monoplanar. Each level of the dungeon existed independently. Daggerfall attempted to get away from that with huge sprawling complexes. It had mixed results.

There are problems with Daggerfall style dungeons that have not ever been addressed. One of the problems is there is no way to locate quest items in the dungeon without a brute force search. That was solved in later games with quest markers that went way too far. The other solution was to eliminate hard to navigate areas. Virtually all of the dragonborn quests were very linear and ended with a predictable cut scene. Then the shortcut out opened up. Skyrim is so poorly designed it is impossible to play without quest markers.

I've addressed the issue of pockets of randomly generated monsters HERE. As for markers, Arena allowed you to mark up your map with notes. I think that should be implemented in DFU. I also think for the sake of immersion you should be able to place decals on dungeon walls like "← Exit" or "→ Dead End" as well as on your map. One or the other or both. The DFU map is a bit better but could use improvements. I was thinking earlier about how to improve the spaghetti bowl that is dungeon mapping. The real problem with mapping is managing the information presented on the map. I thought about it for some time and came up with some ideas on how to better manage the visual information. My idea for dealing with 3D spaghetti is to have some sliders on the map HUD. The sliders control transparency above and below. There could be another pair of sliders that fade the ghosted map. Ghosted map has a selector to choose a color for above and below independently.

The way it operates is this; Let's say you are looking for the way down. You pull the slider for upper levels down until the opaque levels above you are fully transparent. Since you only need to go down 2 levels you turn down the lower lever slider until the levels below are fully transparent. To better orient yourself you select red for levels above you and blue for levels below you. Because you are only interested in going down, you minimize the above you color and set the lower than you color high enough so it clearly indicates where the down ramp is. I would also suggest changing the density on the solid portion of the map. Levels below you are darker (as if seen through a dark fog) and levels above are lighter as if seen through a white fog. One last thing a color indicating paths you have not explored would fix the eternal wandering syndrome.

In a previous post I talked about a detect quest spell that gives you a compass marker indicating the direction to the quest item, assuming it is in range. For non spell casters I suggest a hint system. Every time you loot a body/treasure there is a chance that a message will pop up. The message will give a clue. If the item is in the same section the clue might say "You find a clue indicating you are close to your goal" or "a clue indicates that the thing you seek is above you" etc. A check box would turn this off and on.

A quick question. Does anyone know if there is a tooltip for map transparency in the map HUD?

[pango]

A quick question. Does anyone know if there is a tooltip for map transparency in the map HUD?

It's all explained in the tooltips of the "move upstairs" and "move downstairs" icons:
- middle mouse button pressed + up and down movements, or Ctrl + page up/down to change the map slices displayed;
- f2/f3/f4 or Enter or double middle button click to switch map slices display mode between cut/wireframe/transparency modes

[BansheeXYZ]

In a previous post I talked about a detect quest spell that gives you a compass marker indicating the direction to the quest item, assuming it is in range. For non spell casters I suggest a hint system.

Aren't the detect spells fairly useless, though? Proximity doesn't matter unless you have a direct route. It could be in a room and at a depth that is utterly disconnected from where you are, so you're still just guessing.

The only way to find quest items is to methodically explore the whole dungeon until it's completely mapped out. Sometimes you get lucky and bump into it early, other times it's in the last unmapped room.

My idea for dealing with 3D spaghetti is to have some sliders on the map HUD. The sliders control transparency above and below. There could be another pair of sliders that fade the ghosted map. Ghosted map has a selector to choose a color for above and below independently.

Daggerfall dungeons don't have neatly structured "levels" though, the way Arena does. If it did, you could represent each level in 2d and call it a day. Instead, it is truly spaghetti-form.

I personally find the current opacity stuff to be confusing. Higher segments blending with segments beneath them muddies my sense of which is deeper. I wish there was a way to turn it off.

[jayhova]

Aren't the detect spells fairly useless, though? Proximity doesn't matter unless you have a direct route. It could be in a room and at a depth that is utterly disconnected from where you are, so you're still just guessing.

The only way to find quest items is to methodically explore the whole dungeon until it's completely mapped out. Sometimes you get lucky and bump into it early, other times it's in the last unmapped room.

Knowing the general location would help. Detect spells can give you both the direction and how far away a thing is by the rate the direction changes. Perhaps the compass marks with triangles for up and down as well as a diamond for things on the same plane would help.

Daggerfall dungeons don't have neatly structured "levels" though, the way Arena does. If it did, you could represent each level in 2d and call it a day. Instead, it is truly spaghetti-form.

Daggerfall does have levels. Each room in a dungeon is on a specific level. Those levels are connected with shafts, ramps and stairs. Sometimes the shafts are so large they form giant rooms. However there are levels and the levels are specific in number. The issue is that levels are not always connected sequentially. e.g. level 4 might have a ramp down to level 6. The way this works is laid out here.

I personally find the current opacity stuff to be confusing. Higher segments blending with segments beneath them muddies my sense of which is deeper. I wish there was a way to turn it off.

I am absolutely in agreement with you here. DFU needs a better way to help the player manage the information. It should be clear to the player from visual cues where things are in relation to the PC's location. The level above and the level below need to be visually dissimilar enough to differentiate between them be that with color or density or whatever. Simply using size as the only visual cue is not enough.

This is similar to the problem that fighter pilots have. Information management. In the early days of aviation pilots were only responsible for dealing with planes they could see and shooting them with a single weapon. Now the pilot must manage air to air radar, air to ground radar, information from awacs, possibly a half dozen different weapons, a radar warning receiver, missiles coming from the ground, missiles coming from the air, and visually locating planes not picked up on any of those systems. Hence information overload.

The map presents a similar challenge. It often presents you with a lot of information that is not relevant. The room that is displayed so clearly on the other side of the map is unhelpful if that is not where you are going. Levels displayed above you are distracting if you are not going up. Levels displayed below you are useless if you are not going down.

There are some problems with dungeons in Daggerfall that are game stoppers. Two that come to mind are trapdoors that cannot be opened from the underside (a real problem if you happen to be teleported there) and dungeons in which quest items manifest in inaccessible locations. Both of these issues were bugs in the original game.

[pango]

Does your remarks take into account already existing map slice display modes (f2/f3/f4)?

[jayhova]

Not really. I do need to become more familiar with them so I can have a better educated opinion on them. It does seem the the HUD needs to have actual explicit controls on it to manipulate these functions. Sometimes you need to put seatbelts in the Model T.

[algfr]

My suggestion is to revert to the old "level" based dungeons with staircases.

I'd rather have a more legacy RPG experience and be able to read a map correctly.

This up/downs corridors is what I dislike the most in this game especially when they are ridiculously steep. I know it's fantasy but why would anyone build mazes like this in reality ?

[johnwax]

In classic (back in the day) I used to map quest dungeons as I went through them. I noted existing dungeon markers like candles, bottles, skulls, etc and dropped useless ingredients when necessary to mark an explored area. For hidden doors, I rotated the 3D map image and examined the walls. Both worked passably well.

Re mapping - dungeons are 3D but you can do it on paper, though the average dungeon would spread over 4 or 5 sheets (and still not be complete). Main quest dungeons are fixed and if the Unity staff is interested in making them available, I have hand-drawn maps of most of the main quest dungeons with the most direct route to the quest item/subject highlighted. Have also text directions (in Word). Let me know if anyone wants them.