Ebony dagger

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Teralitha
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Ebony dagger

Post by Teralitha » Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:22 pm

So I was wondering why the damage on the ebony dagger is 5-10 and not 9-14. And if its all ebony daggers or just the one from character creation that is 5-10

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Interkarma
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Re: Ebony dagger

Post by Interkarma » Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:31 pm

The damage is 5-10 in both classic and DFU. However classic displays the damage incorrectly in info popup. This was discovered some time back, and DFU displays the correct value.

https://github.com/Interkarma/daggerfal ... -326803585

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mikeprichard
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Re: Ebony dagger

Post by mikeprichard » Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:55 pm

I vaguely remember this discussion from before. I'd like to fix the UESP page (https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Weapons) as I recently did with the Critical Strike page for clarity, but before I do, can anyone please confirm which specific in-game displayed damage ranges are incorrect and the correct values?

According to Allofich's git notes at the above link, all weapons other than steel and silver are displayed incorrectly by a factor of two to the material modifiers, but I'd like to be sure before I touch UESP. In particular, if I'm reading Allofich correctly, I think I'd need to edit the "Material Modifiers" table on the UESP page and related ranges in the "Weapon List" section with the following values, but please correct me if I'm off:

Iron: -2 corrected to -1
Elven: +2 corrected to +1
Dwarven: +4 corrected to +2
Mithril: +6 corrected to +3
Adamantium: +6 corrected to +3
Ebony: +8 corrected to +4
Orcish: +10 corrected to +5
Daedric: +12 corrected to +6

Also, as the "Material Modifiers" table notes the above values apply to both damage and hit calculations, does this "doubling" bug affect both, or only damage? E.g. is -1 the correct damage and to-hit modifier for Iron weapons, or is it -1 for damage but still -2 for hit? Finally, I don't understand Allofich's note "The damage is the base damage, before anything like strength modifiers are factored in." Does "The damage" there refer to the weapon type base damage plus the material modifier, or something else? Can anyone clarify?

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Interkarma
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Re: Ebony dagger

Post by Interkarma » Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:25 pm

Classic was adding twice the material modifier in the info popup. All materials above silver will be affected. The higher the material level, the greater the discrepancy.

I don't know about updating UESP. It's not like anyone is going to fix the display bug in classic, so this will just keep coming up anytime someone notices. I'm not sure I want to be explaining this for the rest of my life. :)

If you want to confirm display error using information readily available on UESP, here's a method. But UESP is mixing correct and incorrect info on these pages so you have to know where to look.
  • A standard steel dagger has a damage range of 1 to 6. See the "base damage" for dagger on the table at the top of this page. But ignore the material modifiers table further down as these are not correct.
  • Ebony adds a +4 material modifier to damage. You can see the correct (edit: more correct, but still not 100% correct) material damage modifier values here.
  • 1 to 6 (with ebony +4) is a total damage of 5 to 10. That's the correct damage for the ebony dagger and what is shown in DFU.
  • Classic applies the material bonus twice in the info popup, so 1 to 6 (with bad +8) is a damage of 9-14. This is not correct, but shown in info popup.
DFU simply fixes this bug and displays the correct damage value in info popup.

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mikeprichard
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Re: Ebony dagger

Post by mikeprichard » Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:44 pm

Thanks; that's exactly how I interpreted it. I also understand what you're saying about not wanting to fight the wiki information for the rest of your natural life, which is why I first plan to propose these fixes to the UESP page in the page discussion to ensure nobody will try to revert/dispute any changes. My proposed changes to the page would also make it very clear that the in-game displayed values are in fact incorrect. Two more questions for ya:

1) Iron is OK? Allofich only excluded steel and silver in his notes, but it sounds like the classic -2 display for iron weapons is also correct based on your below quote.
Interkarma wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:25 pm
Classic was adding twice the material modifier in the info popup. All materials above silver will be affected.
2) As I mentioned above, I'm not clear whether the to-hit values are correct in the UESP table - i.e. does a distinction need to be made on the UESP page that e.g. +4 is the correct Dwarven to-hit modifier, but +2 is the correct Dwarven damage modifier?

Thanks as always for all your help!

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Interkarma
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Re: Ebony dagger

Post by Interkarma » Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:44 pm

I just checked in classic and iron displays as 0-4. Based on the information I have from Allofich in DFU, this should be 0-5. Allofich uses a -1 modifier for iron rather than -2 as listed on UESP. Again, this is double the modifier so looks like the same bug in classic also affects iron.

To-hit uses the material modifier * 10 and accumulates this to chance to hit (so +40 for ebony). I'm of the opinion the material modifier information information on the weapons page is based on manual damage observation only using info popup in classic. Those values seem to have no relationship with either hit chance or damage.

I don't think this table is 100% correct either. I understand the most correct values are the ones Allofich provide in GetWeaponMaterialModifier() and GetMaterialArmorValue() inside of DaggerfallUnityItem.cs. These would be based on actual reverse engineering of classic. The values Allofich uses for weapons are below:

Code: Select all

Iron		-1
Steel		 0
Silver		 0
Elven		 1
Dwarven		 2
Mithril		 3
Adamantium	 3
Ebony		 4
Orcish		 5
Daedric		 6
And the modifier values for armour are below. These display correctly in classic AFAIK and the table on UESP seems correct here also.

Code: Select all

Leather		 3
Chain		 6
Iron		 7
Steel		 9
Silver		 9
Elven		 11
Dwarven		 13
Mithril		 15
Adamantium	 15
Ebony		 17
Orcish		 19
Daedric		 21

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mikeprichard
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Re: Ebony dagger

Post by mikeprichard » Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:18 am

OK, thanks. If you don't mind, I'm going to add a new discussion post to the UESP page linking here and see whether people would be OK with fixes to the two affected pages.

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Interkarma
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Re: Ebony dagger

Post by Interkarma » Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:41 am

Happy for you link discussion back here. It would also be great if Allofich can provide additional input, as he's the one who determined correct values. I can't speak to his process here, but I can vouch he has the bona fides to do this. We owe much of the formula matching to his hard work.

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mikeprichard
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Re: Ebony dagger

Post by mikeprichard » Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:50 am

Great, done. Even if I get the green light in the UESP discussion to make changes there, I'll wait a couple weeks for resident reverse-engineering god Allofich to provide confirmation/input here if he's around and so chooses.

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